Criminal Minds spoiler thread for "Safe Haven" written by Alicia Kirk and starring Joe Mantegna, Thomas Gibson, Paget Brewster, Shemar Moore, Matthew Gray Gubler and Kirsten Vangsness.
**Beware! Comments will contain spoilers.
Wednesday, October 20, 2010
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145 comments:
I am so happy, tonight we get another new epi from our favorite show! Can´t wait, last three have been awesome!
Looking forward to seeing the episode.
I'm so excited! New epi on CM, the best show ever in history of shows! Can't wait! I LOVE Criminal Minds & everybody in there :D
Hope they let Matthew direct aother one soon. Although he is quite an amazing actor-and it's a difficult trade off to see less of him on the screen. It's amazing to see the exquisite details he puts into his shots and his final product!
Awww I love Morgan sfm! I think he and Garcia should adopt elle!
So Ellie stole her foster mom's credit card, bought a ticket online and got past airport security to runaway to be with Morgan. Her foster brother peeks at her in the shower and I almost cried when Garcia told Morgan that the foster family didn't even know she was gone.
Since Morgan watched his dad get killed when he was a kid and he did promise Spicer he would take care of Ellie you know Morgan is going to keep her.
OMG it is a teenager. I was sure it was the priest. I was shocked to see him dead and gutted.
So the Safe Haven law in Nebraska is the clue. The kid was dumped.
The unsub is a really smooth talker.
This episode is great so far. Great.
I was surprised that Hotch was so supportive of Morgan having Ellie's foster care switched to his area. I guess when Morgan reminded Hotch that he would want him to take care of Jack if something happened to him that it hit a chord.
Good thing that the mom left a message at the dead people's home thinking that Jeremy lived there. Now they know where he is.
I am shocked that Riverton was fooled by Jeremy. Inviting him into the house like that.
Morgan has Garcia looking for Ellie's mom.
The kidnapped mom is so smart. She is staying calm and saying all the right things to stay alive. I don't think I could be this calm in her circumstances.
Loved Rossi saying he knows things. LOL
I have a confession to make.... I'm in love with a fictional character and his name is Derek Morgan!
Is this a new CM writer or a freelance writer? Amazing episode. We need this writer to do more episodes.
The last scene with Morgan, the mom, Ellie and the book really captured the essence of Morgan. It was so truly him.
Well written and great.
OMG anyone else tear up at the end, this was a great episode for Morgan, you got to see both sides of him and it couldn't have been better!
I loved hearing Mike Posner's "cooler Than Me" on the radio in the Reverend's truck.
The GTA IV reference was pretty neat too.
So the mother of the monster hated him since he was in her womb because he was supposed to be a twin but he absorbed his twin. How is that the kid's fault. No wonder he grew up to be a psycho. She admitted she hated him from before he was even born.
Great teamwork in this episode and I liked the camera work in the opening scene a lot.
Incredible how she saved her kids by connecting and sensing what with the sicko. I honestly was shocked that he cut her. I thought he was going to let her live.
Good night to be a CM fan. Top notch epi for sure.
I was not so thrilled with this episode. I thought the kid playing the unsub was a terrible actor. And the makeup job on him was so poor, it was completely distracting. Every time his face was on screen, all I could think about was the obvious orange lines on his jawline and forehead.
There was a similar problem with Thomas Gibson's makeup. That might seem a petty complaint, but it's the sort of thing that really takes you out of an episode.
I also thought there should have been a scene with someone - ANYONE - coming across Mare Winningham's bleeding body in the van. The obvious assumption is that she's dead, since we never see her onscreen again, and then there's a throwaway line from Reid that she survived surgery?
The plotline with Ellie made absolutely no sense at all. Okay, she snuck onto an airplane, but then how did she sneak in to Quantico? Are we seriously supposed to believe that she hopped in a cab to Quantico and they just waved her on in to the building? That any kid, traveling on her own, wouldn't be stopped by any of the hundreds of law enforcement agents she would encounter well before she got to Morgan's office?
That stretches the bounds of credulity to the breaking point.
And what is the story with the mom and the journal? How long has Ellie's mom supposed to have been gone? If she wrote to her every day, why didn't Ellie get the letters? She just wrote them in that journal? That makes NO SENSE whatsoever. The woman couldn't pick up a phone and call her daughter once in awhile? Ellie's mother appears to have a job, a normal life, how the heck could she possibly have been so hard to find?? A simple check with the IRS should have turned up her information. That was just silly.
And finally - um...continuity people? According to the episode P911 in season 2, Garcia has brothers - she is NOT an only child as she stated in this episode.
I seriously HATE when writers do that. If we fans can be bothered to remember this stuff, you can too.
Ruby, Sorry but I disagree with you. I do agree that the Ellie actress isn't the best but the episode was really good imho.
I like when they bounce ideas of each other coming up with profiles and I realized it was a kid just about the same time they did.
The episode held my attention so much I didn't go potty until it was all over.
Does anyone know the song that was playing in the opening kill scene? The post with quotes and songs does not have it listed.
I enjoyed this episode for the most part. I always enjoy the killer kid unsub, because they are always so disturbing and make me glad I don't have kids. I am always afraid I will end up with a sociopath who is just evil to the core. I felt the actor portraying the unsub was deeply unsettling, and the profiling good in this case. I remember when Nebraska's Safe Haven was first enacted, and the age loophole hadn't been closed. There actually were parents who were abandoning their teenage kids to become wards of the state. The budding psychopathic kids always makes me shudder, because often times they are just bad, and don't necessarily come an abusive home. There isn't anything you can do for them. I am glad the team mentioned they will keep this kid's file available, because I am sure the BAU will encounter him again, years down the road.
I was leery about Ellie making a reappearance, but I was generally pleased with how it was handled. It was a reasonably plausible explanation on how Ellie managed to get across the country, though I am glad we didn't dwell TOO much on the details. I honestly thought we would find out that Ellie was lying about the neglect and the writers were setting her up to be a possible future unsub as a dramatic counterpoint to the actual kid unsub. However, I am glad that the question of Ellie's mom was finally addressed, because the audience never knew anything about her before. I am also glad that while Morgan was able to do something very good for Ellie, take care of her, reunite her with her mom and set her up for a better life, he is not actually going to be a parent to her. That would have strained credulity and I felt the Ellie subplot was resolved satisfactorily. He can still be a sort of "big brother" to her, but I hope Ellie's home life is much more stable.
I thought the entire team worked well together, and as always, love me some Reid profiling. I could just look at him and listen to him talk for hours and be happy. There wasn't a tremendous amount of personal team interaction with this case, as it seemed to be more case focused with few personal details. However two points:
1. Rossi plays Grand Theft Auto 4. Interesting, and I can see that. I guess that is what men do when they rack up three ex wives and aren't currently in a romantic relationship.
2. Penelope is an only child? I thought at some point she had brothers. I don't remember when it was mentioned, but I know we have discussed it here on the message board before. Oh well. Another bit of character incontinuity.
The book the mom wrote to Ellie let Morgan know that she didn't dump her child. Who knows how much pressure there was in the marriage. I trust Morgan to do the right thing and I loved Hotch telling him that he would know what the right thing was. I like how they back each other up.
I too thought Garcia had several brothers. I am confused about that but all the rest was golden.
How cute and funny was Rossi & Grand Theft Auto!!!!
Winningham's character was amazing. What a great performance. I love it when the victims are strong and she was as tough as nails.
The story was really good. The kid was soooo creepy. There was good teamwork, but Hotch, Rossi and Reid, kind of disappeared about halfway though - mostly Hotch. But it was a nice start for writer Alicia Kirk.
I don't like it when Morgan guilts Hotch into getting his own way - he did it in the season opener and he did it again tonight.
There was a continuity error - In Season 2, P911, Garcia said she had 4 brothers and tonight she said she was an only child.
I hope this is the last we see of Ellie. The ending was a little predictable, but if it gets rid of Ellie, then I LOVED IT!
I'm happy to see that the show is branching out to more than just the east and west coasts with the unsubs. I'm from Nebraska and I followed the Safe Haven law debacle when it happened but I never thought of a story line like this. Good idea, and I thought the writing/acting (whole episode really) was good but a little under par for this show. Still glued to the tv for the whole hour though!
@hellopals... The song in the opening scene was "moneygrabber" by Fitz and the tantrums.
lovewornheart - thanks. After some serious stalking and searching, I was able to find it as well.
Broke my heart to hear Derek talking about the death of his dad and how he thinks about him everyday.
Some people may have a hard time understanding why he would trust Ellie with a mom that walked away but I think Morgan knows better than anyone that families are never perfect and you can never know the whole story. I think he made the right call by trusting her. And he has sicko radar. Obviously it didn't go off.
Kudos to CM for another great episode.
This episode was really well done. I'm glad an episode like this was done because it's seen so much of how parents mistreat their kids. I hope a lot of abusive parents were watching this episode because it was fantastically done and it was a great way to get the message out their that kids shouldn't be treated like that. And amazing work by the cast too!
There were lots of subtle references to past episodes and cases tonight.
Garcia and her brothers is a freaky thing. Not sure I understand. That seems like a really big mistake to make. Maybe it comes up in another episode and is explained. Or maybe they were step brothers.
So the Safe Haven law turned into a way for people to just dump their kids. How sad is that?
The songs are in another post on the blog. I just looked at it. Confused as to why nobody noticed it.
Anyway, awesome episode. I agree with those that thought it was the priest because it fit what they were saying about someone who would be trusted. I was as shocked as everyone that it turned out to be the teenage boy. Crimes committed by kids are so bizarre to me. I know they happen but CM reminds me of what happens to kids that aren't loved and nurtured.
Bravo and hugs to our actors for a great episode and to the writer.
I am so loving Season 6 and believe it is the best so far. The characters have all come into their own and their interaction is perfect.
I thought the Ellie subplot was good and gave Shemar another chance to show his acting chops.
I laughed out loud at Rossi's Grand Theft comment and Mare Winningham's performance was excellent as have been all the guest stars so far this year.
I love how they referenced the Fox as an established serial killer just as they have done with real life ones such as Bundy, etc.
Of course there was that one little continuity error with Garcia but all can be forgiven with the rest of the great story line. ThE use of the Safe Haven law was very believable.
I used to live in Northern Virginia and I once got lost and ended up somewhere near Quantico. A couple of heavily armed Marines immediately stopped me and turned me around.
There is just no way on earth Ellie would have gotten into the BAU. It's impossible. It's ridiculously unbelievable. It's fanfiction for goodness' sake.
If the Spicer kid showed someone at Quantico Morgan's business card which we know she has then I think they would do something with her. They aren't going to turn a child back onto the streets.
LOVED the episode.
Wonderful season so far. No complaints from me other than I miss JJ.
Those poor moms having to watch their kids die and then their husbands. Strange that they were looking for someone everyone would trust which would be a priest and in the end the priest turned out to be the one too trusting.
I like how they resolved Morgan's promise to Det Spicer. It had a good feel to it and that closing bit of Morgan walking down the hall was great.
Ok just saw from a very reliable source (wink wink) that the Garcia "gaffe" will be explained. Part of the whole Season 6 secrets theme I guess. Ha! I love it :) Those CM writers are crafty ones :)
Great Episode. A++
Nice plot twist on the priest vs. teenager...Cutest unsub evah....Beautiful eyes..Do You know where your teenagers are??? Who knew Morgan was such a father figure? So wonderful to see both sides of him, I almost fell for him-almost...sorry Matthew's still my number one-but not enough Reid tonight...c'mon writers, let's go!! This guy has been a very under used resource for all 3 of the latest episodes...seriously, interesting character drying up before my eyes...I haz a sad now...
this unsub should be back....couple years.
Joanne,
I think the same thing. Maybe this unsub does come back. Rossi did say the BAU should keep his file. I could totally believe him reappearing again a season or two from now.
Did I see Hotch smile tonight or was it wishful thinking?
The creepy kid was a quick talker and a master manipulator. I couldn't believe how he was so quick with answer's to Nancy Riverton's questions. Seriously scary to think a kid could be so sick but look at his mom. She was wickedly and seriously demented. How do you hate a child before they are even born?????
For me it was an ok episode, not great but not bad. Probably won´t see it again. I did like the story about the teen unsub, it was interesting. The kid played creepy really well.
Did not enjoyed the Morgan-Ellie story and I am so glad it is done (hopefully). For me it was silly how the kid suddenly smiled and accepted her mom just because Morgan said so (BTW I still think she does not look like a 9 year old). What I disliked most was that there was virtually no Hotch or Rossi in this episode. Next epi does look cool...maybe it will have the whole team on it!!!!!
Not sure why the kid didn't just slice his sister's neck. He got off on making mothers suffer and this was in front of his own mom who was the cause of all his hatred. I am sure he believed Derek would shoot him but he had the chance at the ultimate revenge on his mom and he passed on it. I think the kid could be treated and repaired. He was calling for his mom as they lead him away. You had to feel bad for him. He wasn't born a monster. She made him one. Agree that we will see him again.
I liked it.
I was very impressed with the episode. I like this new writer's style and she captured the true essence of the individual characters very well. She is off to a good start in my book.
I am disappointed that they are ending the Morgan/Ellie storyline so soon. It wad going so well and I wanted so much more out of it than them just finding her mom.
Would've been cool seeing how Morgan would have dealt with Ellie every week or even if he would have adopted her.
This episode was bitter sweet for that reason.
Glad to see that they're giving the Reid character a break, because tbh, I was getting a little tired of him getting all the spotlight.
Glad to see the other characters getting air time, like it should be.
Jeremy was a great unsub. I think the priest did get a vibe from him. Look at the scene again. The priest looks at Jeremy several times like he was sizing him up. And they were talking about safety.
Jeremy said his mom blamed him for everything and he mentioned the sister's broken arm. I wonder if he really did break it. How could a mother be so cold to her child from birth and then be surprised when he turns out to be a monster. She needs therapy.
Mare Winningham gave an Emmy award winning performance tonight. I wish we had seen more of her in the episode. She was great.
I am giving the episode a thumbs up. Enjoyed it!!!!!!
I loved it! Ellie is so cute =]
Miss JJ though.
Thanks for listing the songs. I was wondering what the one at the beginning was. I jumped up and ran to the TV to do Song ID with my phone, but it was too late. I know now though.
Looking forward to next week's episode!!
Oh, also - I lol'd at Rossi talking about Grand Theft Auto, and everyone was like ????
And then he was like "I KNOW THINGS!"
Hahaha.
Am I the only one NOT shocked by the teenage unsub? The preview last week completely gave it away in my opinion. I knew it was the teenager even before he got into the priests car.
I was a little annoyed with this episode; the development of and the behavior of the character of Ellie grated my nerves and tonight’s episode only served to reinforce those feelings. Because this subplot started at the beginning of the episode, my focus was somewhat distracted from the main unsub and the central plot.
First, how can foster parents not be able to count to six? It must have taken Ellie at least a day or two to get from California to Quantico, and nobody realized there were only five kids around. And last week it was established that Ellie was texting Morgan day and night; yet she never once let on to Morgan that the older boy was ogling her in the shower, or that she had any problems or was scared enough to run away.
And how do you stay close to the same family going through security as Ellie said she had, without a boarding pass? At nine, you can’t sit on your parent’s lap; you have to have your own seat. Once you put your carryon items on the conveyor belt, you have to individually walk through the metal detector. Are we supposed to believe the so-called family she stood next to waited for her? And how the heck did she get into a high-security facility like Quantico with no identification and no one calling ahead for permission to enter. This was all so ridiculous.
As Ruby Jane said above, it strains credulity to the breaking point.
Ellie’s mom is writing her everyday and Los Angeles County can’t find her. A dying father doesn’t say to Morgan, get Ellie to her mother. Ellie obviously had fond memories of her mother; yet she develops a relationship with Morgan and travels across the country as if her mother doesn’t exist. Ellie obviously received the letters because she acknowledged that she didn’t care that her mom had written her and pushed the journal away as if she knew what it was.
And what difference did it make anyway; the mom has the legal authority in the situation, not Morgan. The script was written as if Morgan had to give his permission to the mom. Unless the mom had been declared unfit at some point or there had been evidence of abuse, she would be the one making the calls; and she obviously had more history with Ellie than Morgan had, reading stories together among other things. She seemed to be a well-situated, working parent who loved her daughter.
I also am a little tired of Morgan “guilting” Hotch into knuckling under to his unreasonable actions. He did the same thing in the Season opener when he told Hotch that they supported him during the Foyet saga in order to get Hotch to let him go inside the house where he unloaded on the unsub. This episode he pulls the guilt card with the “what if it were Jack” deal. Give me a break. Morgan has known Hotch for more six years; he was there when Jack was born. He had just met Ellie and her father. I understand he may see this as an obligation, but to compare them to Hotch and Jack seemed imbalanced and selfish.
The case was serviceable. The unsub, as a contrast to Ellie, was more like her than not. They both felt unappreciated by their mothers; he lashed out violently; Ellie simply rejected her mother’s love. That may have had more to do with Ellie’s father, which is also inexplicable, since Spicer lost both his parents at an early age. His mom didn’t reject him; he thought she died in a car accident.
I was frustrated by last week’s episode because I expected a Hotch/Prentiss episode and saw it as a missed opportunity. However, the storytelling made sense; and the episode on balance, was good. The entire Ellie saga has always seemed forced and illogical to me. I guess it gave us a opportunity to see Morgan’s compassionate side; but I was too distracted by the Ellie character and the story to really appreciate it.
I find the promos to be a bunch of crap most times so I didn't realize it was the kid. I loved this epi.
Rat pellets in turkey....add that to the other foods I will no longer eat thanks to CM. *g*
Well color me stupid too because I was surprised it was the kid but then again I never look at the promos. I like being surprised. We needed some Morgan time but I didn't think this felt like the Morgan show. There was tons of teamwork and a great cast. I am going to bed satisfied.
I knew the unsub was the kid before the episdoe, because I saw the promos and some stuff online.
Pretty interesting case. I am glad the Ellie storyline is over. It wasn't bad but it wasn't good. I thought the cast and the guest stars did a truly great job.
Moral of the story is not to hate your kids before they are born unless you want to end up with a monster for a kid. Really enjoyed the twists and turns.
Just a few things...
First... Rossi playing Grand Theft Auto... the team looked as confused as I felt. However, I can totally see him doing that! And the whole teenage UnSub... Talk about creepy!
When I was watching the episode, I remembered something Garcia said about having four brothers, yet in this episode, she said she was an only child... Unless they were step-brothers, which I'm assuming they are, seeing as we've never seen or heard from them. It could also be a hint as to Garcia's secret... Why she hasn't really mentioned her family, and why we've never seen them.
I noticed that some of the characters, mainly Rossi, Hotch and Reid, kinda disappeared about halfway through the episode... I think it was nothing, but I kinda want to see where they ran off to next time; I especially worry about Reid. But overall I loved this episode and I hope this new writer keeps coming back.
...Also, can Matthew direct another episode? I remember thinking Mosley Lane was a very though-out, much-detailed episode, and I would very much love to see another episode with that same amount of detail. He's got an amazing set of gifts both in front of and behind the camera!
And finally, I was very nearly in tears by the time the episode ended; I know how Morgan and Ellie feel when it comes to losing a father. Although my dad lost a battle with cancer, and wasn't killed by a gun, I can understand how it can still hurt to live through that pain everyday, especially since the bond between parent and child is a very strong bond, and many children feel a very close kinship to their fathers in certain cases. I found that this was portrayed very well throughout the episode. Even though I'm sad to see Ellie go, I'm kinda happy to see that her storyline was resolved. Morgan has fulfilled his promise.
what was the name of the song in the opening sequence? Love it! Loved the episode and the new writer!
Sterling Beaumon was great. Young Ben Linus had a horrible mom and tonight on CM he had a horrible dad. The kid is very talented and did a great job tonight.
The opening song was "Moneygrabber" by Fitz and the Tantrums. They're a new act, I saw them open for Maroon 5 last year and I've loved them ever since. It was great seeing them combined with my favorite show.
I too didn't think this episode was great. I miss the "gasp" factor CM used to have for me. I started watching reruns on A&E and wondered why I hadn't watched this show from the beginning, but lately, the stories seem forced and the character development seems to be lacking.
I'm glad the Ellie story arc is done and hopefully doesn't come back.
The studio supplies the song info and doesn't have any songs other than the ones listed on the blog listed.
:)Great episode!
Why was everyone shocked that the kid was the unsub, not the priest? Didn't people watch the previews from last week or read the articles?? LOL. That said, kid unsubs are super creepy to me so good job on the creep-factor. LOL. The episode wasn't "WOW" great, but it had some really good moments where the actors got to shine. The scenes I liked best were: Mare Winningham and unsub kid in the car, unsub's mom freaking out at unsub, Morgan and Hotch on the plane, and Morgan's performance in the scene with Ellie and her mom. (Not crazy about Ellie and the mom, sorry... though the little girl who portrayed Ellie did an excellent job being able to cry like that!)
So is that Rossi's secret then? He's addicted to Grand Theft Auto? j/k lulz
Regarding how Ellie got into Quantico: I may have missed it, but they didn't say that she just waltzed in. It's thoroughly possible that she was indeed stopped by marines/security. All she had to do was say she was there to see Derek Morgan and they would have helped her instead of throwing her into interrogation, being a small child and all. LOL.
Regarding the Garcia brothers/no brothers "gaffe": considering she does not look in any way hispanic, AT ALL, and considering her surname, I am guessing the previously mentioned "brothers" aren't her real biological brothers but possibly step-brothers...
Didn't like how Ellie did a complete 180 into smiling acceptance of her mother after Derek tells her to. It was hard to believe and kinda took me out of the episode.
Terrific jobs by Shemar Moore, Mare Winningham, and the mom of the unsub!!
Great twist at the end. Didn't see that coming at all. Nature vs. Nurture! The entire episode I was blaming the kid's psychopathy on his genes... but perhaps it was nurture after all, considering his mother had already decided he was a psycho before he was even born (and treated him as such...! Perhaps it was a case of a self-fulfilling prophecy.) It actually made me feel kinda bad for the kid, especially after thinking back about how often he tried to get those women to admit they thought he was "bad" or "evil". :( But then the unsub's psycho creepy arrogant behavior while being hauled to the police car reversed the sympathetic feelings... LOL.
Loved the plane scene between Morgan and Hotch (we needz moar Hotch please... lol). In prior seasons Morgan has always questioned Hotch, so it is really nice to see these two finally able to bond about something. Am not completely crazy about the whole Ellie storyline, but am happy that it brought about this aspect in Hotch and Morgan's relationship. :)
Holy crap, from the preview, next week's episode looks EPIC. Creepy, with Hotch-Jack scenes and Hotch action scenes. Can't wait.
Well that's weird that the studio wouldn't list the song in the opening unsub sequence, how disappointing, I hope people who heard the song and liked it are able to find out that it is a Fitz and the Tantrums song. If you go to their facebook or twitter account, they advertised earlier today that they would be featured on the CM episode for tonight (which was exciting since it's combining two things I love that don't get nearly enough recognition).
Anyway, hopefully the official site updates its page with the correct song info for tonight's episode.
Sorry. I checked the studio email again and it is simply not on it.
To people wondering why some people didn't know it was the kid: Many people don't watch promos and don't even read press releases. They like the surprise factor.
I'm having a really hard time understanding why some people disliked the episode when I liked it so much. Usually I am the one that is the downer in the group. My girlfriend and I both really liked it.
Probably just a last minute addition then, since the group themselves didn't know how it was being used in the show. I asked and they just figured someone involved with the show is a fan.
Hopefully people look at the comments to find their answers.
And to Jessica, I didn't really like the episode because I feel like we're losing the characters. It just seems like in the older episodes there's a lot more moments that really let the characters shine.
I dunno, next week's episode looks pretty thrilling.
i loved the episode.i also very much appreciated that the whole cast wore purple,in a show of solidarity and support for the anti bully campaign. very proud to see the stand you guys took.
i really disliked the unsubs mother.i feel as though she created his problems by blaming him for a biological tradgedy that unfortunately sometimes happens.she openly admitted that she's hated him from birth because of the loss of his twin.i did like how the team mentioned keeping his file for later.
Great episode. What a disturbing unsub. The kidnapped mom was great.
I loved the Morgan/Ellie story line and the Morgan/Hotch scenes !
I’ll start by saying that I know Garcia is doing her best and as a team they have to manage the situation & okay like it or not we are stuck with this decision, but I missed JJ presenting the case.
Something else that bothers me is that more recently we have had a few stabbing unsubs and absolutely no insight in to how Hotch is dealing with all of this, if I was Hotch even being the utmost professional that he is and with all the infallibility that his character portrays I’d have been affected by this case.
We have a teenage unsub terrorising little kids, stabbing the fathers & brutalising the mothers, and yes I know he lives and breaths this work but you can’t tell me that with all that has happened to him and his family, and his team that this doesn’t have an impact on him, somehow this whole case bothered me on Hotch’s behalf.
The case was good, the unsub creepy, and okay he was a total psychopath, and maybe he was driven to be like that or maybe he was always like that and rejected by his family, as a parent though it was hard to imagine how a mother can hate a child even before it was born, but it happens so not so far from the truth, cannot imagine any mother abandoning their kid either, although that happens too, the scenes in the car with the unsub and Nancy were well done and was interesting to see the shift, as much as she was trying to engage him and humanise him, he rejected her every step of the way. He made me think of the kid in A Shade of Gray.
Some good profiling but the ultimate narrowing down of the unsub I thought was way too easy even for Garcia’s super research/hacking skills, this was needle in the haystack stuff and so seemed a little too easy in the end.
Like some others I too noticed that Hotch, Rossi & Reid disappeared somewhere in the middle
I’m not sure what it is but I didn’t like how Ellie can turn it on and off as she does, no consistency here in my opinion, and I didn’t buy the whole plot line with Ellie either, and what was with that end, that was just pulled out of a hat, all a little contrived I thought, and not believable, but then again where would this go given we had Ellie come looking for Morgan, he couldn’t keep her, putting her back in to the foster care system would have just repeated the cycle, so I guess this was the next best solution, I didn’t buy it though.
Nice movement when Hotch went over to speak to Morgan and I cringed for Hotch when Morgan said that Ellie’s mother couldn’t hack it be married to a cop, I agree with some of the other comments above too, I didn’t like Morgan’s guilt trip on Hotch again.
As I said at the top I cannot imagine how this and everything that happened in this episode would not impact Hotch, you can be everything to everyone but everyone has their breaking point and no matter how strong he is I cannot believe that he has not reached his breaking point with all that has happened in the cases since he’s been back at work
Okay I don’t expect that he will fall down and crumble in a heap, this is not Hotch, as Reid said he’s not a blinker but at some deep level all this has to impact him, okay maybe he is secretly in therapy .. and that’s what gets him through, well we know Jack would surely get him through and the support of his team but the non mention, the non reference bothers me no end
Continuity … RubyJane thanks, I thought exactly the same thing, Garcia had brothers, and … okay Mary, I picked up on your comment too, will wait for the explanation!!
Oh yeah, the BAU should most definitely hold on to this file, I can see this one coming back!!
There were some good moments, but overall not a wow episode for me
For all those people who asked why Ellie's mother was so hard to fond if she wrote to Ellie every day:
She was writing to Ellie in the JOURNAL - she wasn't sending her letters. She didn't have any contact with Ellie after she left.
Thank goodness, an end to the Ellie Spicer/Morgan arc! Now maybe we can get back to seeing the more realistic side to CM. I still think the kid creeped me out more than Tim Curry's character! lol And I have to agree with a couple of others here, that this was the 2nd time that Morgan completely overstepped the boundary and tossed Hotch's love for his son back in his face. Ridiculous and showed a lack of respect. If that is how he needs to act to get his way... And the fact Hotch just took it was infuriating. Sorry, rant now over but am very glad the arc is over.
On a positive note, the new writer did pretty well with the actual case (needs some work on the characters) although I'd like to have seen a better team balance. The mom was very good and I'm happy they spared her life in the end, just wish we'd seen her being discovered in the van.
Hope the mention of Garcia being an only child was setting us up for her secret and not an 'ooops' but based on past lack of continuity (Hotch, ru EVER gonna be affected by the Foyet arc??! Come on writers!) I am not very confident.
Overall a pretty decent case/team episode. Hoping for more of my main man Hotch in future, as well as Prentiss & Rossi. *pleeeease*
Anyone else think the Mom that picked Jeremy up at the rest stop looks a lot like Jane? From season 2?
I think the episode was quite emotional. Ellie is a kid, Morgan's words at the end were convincing and touching, Ellie listened to him and she's somewhat close to her mom or has been that's what made it a little easier for her to accept her back. The unsub kid was creepy! and his Mom's words were so mean, i actually was shocked (she seemed a moster to me for saying those things to her own child) She could have gotten him help instead she abandoned him, what kind of mother is that?! Other than that, the epi was amazing and i loved the fact that we had some tiny Morgan/Garcia moments in a Morgan centered episode, it made my heart sing.
I can't believe people are complaining about Morgan guilting Hotch. It was the right thing to do.
I say absolutely yes! Morgan's right. Spicer wanted Morgan to look after Ellie because he knew he was gonna die. Do you think that Spicer would've been happy seeing Ellie put into a HORRIBLE foster home, where the older boy peaks at her in the shower, and could have had other sick thoughts in mind? Do you also think he would approve of Morgan knowing that, and not trying to do anything about it?
That's not what you want for your kid.
If Hotch died, and asked Morgan to look after Jack, do you think Hotch would want Jack going through the same thing, and Morgan not do a thing to try and help him?
He wasn't manipulating Hotch's love for his son as all. He was right, and Hotch knew it.
As far as Morgan using it to get into the house to kill Flynn, he was right again. Hotch got to get his revenge, and the team backed him. Morgan was fairly entitled to his. The guy beat and tied him up after all, then carried out those horrific events while Morgan was helpless to do anything about it, and had to watch and listen to it.
I was happy to see Flynn get his behind blown away and Morgan doing it made it even better. Had Flynn got arrested or had someone else killed him, I would have been utterly disgusted.
This episode was bitter sweet, because I didn't want the Ellie/Morgan storyline to end, and this ending was garbage. It seemed rushed because they didn't know what else to do with it.
I hope this might not be the end of it, but it looks that way. I'd be ecstatic if it wasn't. This storyline is a great way for further development of the Morgan character. Him kicking down doors, tackling unsubs, and questioning everybody's decisions isn't enough, and I find him the most interesting of all the characters because of his past, and because of how fearless and relentless he is when it comes to doing the right thing, and protecting the innocent.
Up until now it's been all Hotch and Reid, Hotch and Reid. I'm SOOOOOOOO glad they're giving it a rest. I want more Morgan, Garcia, and Prentiss.
Give Hotch and Reid a rest. I don't find their characters interesting in the least bit.
Awesome episode overall though, and I loved how bi-polar the kid was at the end, and how Morgan was up for no bull with him. I believe he wouldn't have hesitated to blow the kid's brains out had he of tried to kill his sister. He had that same look in his eye that he had before he killed Flynn.
I can't believe people are complaining about Morgan guilting Hotch. Morgan was right as rain, and there was nothing awful about what he did.
Spicer wanted Morgan to protect, and ensure Ellie's safety. Do you think he would be happy knowing Ellie is in some foster home where bad things are prone to happen to her. The older boy looking at her in the shower? COME ON! That's TERRIBLE!
If Hotch had been Spicer, and Jack had been Ellie, do you think Hotch would want the same for Jack? That's all Morgan was saying, and Hotch realized it.
Morgan wasn't disrespecting Hotch in ANY way shape or form. He was trying to get him to understand how horrible the situation was, and he wasn't doing it for personal gain, as some are suggesting.
Also, Morgan using the guilt trip to get in the house and kill Flynn in the season premier was right as rain as well. Hotch got his revenge. Morgan was long overdue his. After all Flynn had put him through, he was owed it, and it wasn't right for Hotch to try and stop him. I wanted Flynn's death to be more brutal actually, because of the nature of the situation. But, I'm just a sicko who likes blood and guts. LOL.
I hope this isn't the end of the Ellie/Morgan storyline, because it was an awesome opportunity for further development of the Morgan character. For evolution. I'm sorry, but I'm not happy with the thought of Morgan staying the gun toting, unsub tackling, door kicking, superficial character that he's been. That's just not enough. There needs to be more. Seems kinda like a double standard, IMO.
In the past, it's been all about Hotch and Reid, Hotch and Reid. Enough of that.
We need more Morgan, Prentiss, and Garcia. Give Hotch and Reid a break, and decrease their storylines, pleeeeeeeeeeease. It's ruining 'Minds for me.
I wanna know more about Prentiss's background. I mean, how much do we really know about her. She's an ambassadors daughter. That's about it.
Garcia. Her parents were hippies who were killed by a drunk driver. She was a hacker, and was caught by the government and offered a job because of how skilled and dangerous she was. Thassit.
Morgan's father was a cop killed trying to stop an armed robbery. He's got a white mom, and two sisters. He got into trouble and was mentored, then sexually abused by Carl Buford as a kid. Thassit.
Also, I also think it's funny that we've never seen the inside of Morgan's house. Everyone else has had scenes in their house at one point and time throughout the series, BUT Morgan. He's never had to go home and rest, or take any time off. It's like he's just there. Like, he just goes out and runs the streets after he gets off work and doesn't have a home.
I'm tellin ya, there's so much more I'm expecting from this show, and they've yet to deliver, and as much of a fan as I've been over the years, if things keep centering around Hotch and Reid, I'll lose interest in it, because there are 6 members of that team, not two.
*ends rant*
lol.
Hotch is Criminal Minds. They need to increase rather than decrease his lines.
And as far as it being okay for Morgan to guilt Hotch, that's absurd. What's absurd is Morgan using emotional blackmail to make Hotch feel guilty. He apparently knows Hotch is in a vulnerable place, so using this type of manipulation ensured he would get little push back.
What was equally absurd was for Spicer to ask Morgan to look after Ellie in the first place, when both her mother and sister were still alive. Spicer had know way of knowing his sister would conveniently die; and he certainly knew Ellie's mother was still alive. All he had to do was tell Morgan to locate the mother, or to help his sister by watching over both the sister and Ellie; and foster care would never have entered the equation. And how the heck did he know when he walked in the room, that Morgan and Ellie would survive, and his sister was near death's door. When Spicer entered the room at the end of Season 5, both the sister and Ellie we huddled together on the bed.
This storyline was simply contrived and unrealistic.
And back on the Hotch front, we haven't had enough of him. More Prentiss and Hotch please. The only line I want to hear Hotch utter over the next several episodes is:
"Prentiss, you're with me!"
Terrific episode !
I loved it. Just like a good CM episode.
And Morgan... I love him. He's my hero. Shemar's the best.
Rossi knowing about GTA IV? Oh my God, I laughed so hard ! That was a good one.
"As far as Morgan using it to get into the house to kill Flynn, he was right again. Hotch got to get his revenge, and the team backed him. Morgan was fairly entitled to his. The guy beat and tied him up after all, then carried out those horrific events while Morgan was helpless to do anything about it, and had to watch and listen to it."
wow wonder if people are really watching CM. The BAU team are not judges and executionners! Since when is killing for revenge is right? The very weak argument that 'Hotch killed Foyet why can Morgan do the same to Flynn' is so wrong because it wasn't the same situation! Hotch killed Foyet to save his own life and Jack's life! Go back and watch '100' AGAIN. Foyet TOLD Hotch he would show Jack his parents dead bodies, would tell him it was his dad fault and kill him! When Morgan killed Flynn, Ellie was in no danger. She was already safe!
what Morgan did then was wrong.
Him throwing back at Hotch his actions to save his son, is again wrong. As a parent Hotch had to save his son life even at the cost of his, just like Haley did. Morgan IS not Ellie's parent, not even his legal guardian! And no, Morgan feeling guilty over Spicer's death shouldn't even be mention because he knew that what Spicer asked was not fair. As Prentiss told Morgan, Ellie's Spicer was not Morgan's responsability and she needed help not him.
I agree with Kirsten and many who have complain about this, Morgan was wrong and I'm getting annoyed at his character comparing his his relationship with Ellie Spicer to hotch relationship with his own son!
Sammy
"Hotch is Criminal Minds. They need to increase rather than decrease his lines."
Amen!
I don't mind team balance, but to suggest that Hotch & Reid are boring and make for a bad CM is just plain wrong. We all have our favorite characters and will always ask for more screen-time for them. Respect that and don't dish on someone else's opinions.
Go Hotch & Reid!
Like your points too, Sammy!
I actually love the Morgan/Hotch scenes very much this season. Specially in last nights ep. They showed how much these two men know and understand each other and trust each other. Hotch knows that Morgan will do the right thing because he does not only trust Morgan with his life but he also would trust him with Jack`s life and he knows Morgan will do the best for Elli. And Morgan would do absolutely everything to make sure that Ellie , Jack or whoever might need him will be safe and well. That`s how Morgan is and who he is.
A prepubescent teen with a knife is a scary deal. I appreciated the case. It was different and very gripping.
Sterling Beaumon and Mare Winningham gave Emmy deserving performances.
The eating of his own twin and his spiteful mom got the creep award for the night.
Great Job Criminal Minds!
Wow!! Some of you Hotch fanatics really need to relax! LOL!! Seriously!! In no way does Hotch/Jack relationship compare to Morgan/Ellie, but no one said it did!! I LOVE Reid, but I also love Morgan. I'm happy to see him get some of the focus. I did like the Ellie storyline but I am also happy it's over and I think it ended well. .GunD, I agree with alot of what you said. Maybe not everything, but a lot of it. Morgan did not "guilt" Hotch into anything, and Hotch would NEVER allow him or anyone to do so. But he said was true. Plain and simple. Hotch knows it, just like he knows Morgan would take a bullet for Jack.
Although Morgan is my absolute favorite character, I now would love to see some of the focus on Rossi. Hotch has not had a whole lot of focus so far this season, I think there may be a reason for that. They probably have something big planned for him coming up in the near future. And I look forward to that too. Some questions will probably get answered.
I won't even address the foolishness about Morgan executing or killing Flynn in cold blood (LMAO!!). That was a few episodes ago, wrong thread for it.
One more thing, Hotch IS NOT Criminal Minds!!!! Sorry Megan, Sammy, and Kristen, but he is not the whole show and the show does not center around him! Hotch may not be my favorite character, but I got lot's of love for him too. There are SIX people on that team, he can't get it done without them and they need him just as much!! The show I'm watching is Criminal Minds, not The Life and Times of Aaron Hotchner! Obviously the writers/producers think the same way.
@ Anonymous & Sammy.
First of all, Hotch is NOT Criminal Minds. His name is nowhere in the title, and he is simply apart of the team, just like everyone else. He's the leader, but he is in no way, Criminal Minds itself.
That's absolutely absurd. Like I said, there are 7 cast members, and 7 members of the team, not two. Hotch and Reid have had more than their fair share of air time.
Second of all, in regards to the mother, she said herself that Spicer's relationship with her was so out of whack, and they pretty much couldn't stand each other. So, with Spicer not knowing that the aunt would die, why would he tell Morgan to find the mother? Also, you said it yourself, Spicer had no way of knowing his sister would die. So, why are you attacking Spicer for asking Morgan to look after Ellie, while suggesting at the same time that he should have asked him to look after Ellie AND his sister? o_O
Also, they profiled Flynn. Flynn didn't kill those who refused to show him fear. Duhr. Spicer knew that, so did Morgan. Spicer knew Morgan would make it out alive, which is why he made him promise. Argue it was fair, or not, but if that was your child, and you knew you were gonna die, you'd want that kind of solace, and I'm sure he felt deep down that Morgan would keep his word.
Also, attacking Morgan for killing Flynn, but defending Hotch is such a double standard. Flynn had two victims held hostage at gunpoint. What the hell else was he supposed to do? He requested Flynn surrender numerous times, before realizing what Flynn had planned all along, suicide by cop. "You point that gun at them and I will kill you, and that is another promise." That was his warning. So, he got his revenge with the only option available to him, and it was sweet for those who wanted to see it. How is that wrong? Morgan didn't kill Flynn without cause, and to suggest so, is ridiculous.
While Hotch had to protect his son, Morgan had to protect those two victims, plain and simple. Defending Hotch but attacking Morgan is biased.
Last but not least, Morgan was NOT using emotional blackmail against Hotch, and in suggesting so, suggests bias. Having someone look at an analogy isn't emotional blackmail. Morgan had an excellent point. Put yourself in Spicer's shoes, and what if it were Jack instead of Ellie? Would you be happy with that's going on? Hotch realized Morgan was right. What was happening with Ellie was wrong, and Morgan was in a position to try and make things right, and there's nothing wrong with that. Suggesting so, suggests bias.
More Morgan, Prentiss, and Garcia plz.
patinkinbabe said...
A prepubescent teen with a knife is a scary deal.
You are sooooo right!! Even though he's just a teen, he completely freaked me out, more than a lot of the adult unsubs from the past. I loved this episode. From beginning to end. For those of you who actually thought Derek was gonna try to adopt/raise Ellie, you thought wrong!!! He was simply doing everything he could to help her. And she clearly needed help. Still does if you ask me, hopefully now she will get it from her mother.
Thank you .GunD!!! You are absolutely correct!! For some of our Fanatic's, if they are not staring at Hotch 90% of the episode, they are not happy. And that's too bad!! The show is about a team of FBI agents, not the team leader.
I really miss small,personal moments between the team members. When all we get is too much time spent on the knownsub and going through the motions of not that much deep profiling, all we get is another routine, by-the number case. Still hoping for some innovative cases and a closer look at the inter-team relationships.
I hope that is the last we see of the creepy Ellie.
PS, still waiting for a Reid-centric episode. He is way overdue!
I don't understand why people are complaining there's too much Hotch and Reid this season LOL.
6.01 "The Longest Night" (Morgan-Centric)
6.02 "JJ" (JJ-Centric)
6.03 "Remembrance of Things Past" (Rossi-Centric)
6.04 "Compromising Positions" (a lot of Morgan and Prentiss)
6.05 "Safe Haven" (again, a lot of Morgan)
So I really don't get it??? Hotch is my favorite, but I do understand that it is an ensemble cast and the storylines need to be spread out. However, Hotch really is my favorite and considering we've already gotten quite a bit of Morgan already this season... we need MOAR Hotch please. LOL
I hope Ellie's reunited with her mother means that she's out of the show - I couldn't buy this story a bit. I loved that we had some more of Derek, but it all seems forced to me, very unnatural.
I knew from the very beginning that the killer is a boy - priest would be simply to easy. The actor, who played him, didn't convince me at all. Loved the psycho "I felt that you was wrong" mother, Garcia saying that no one realized Ellie's missing and Rossi's "I know things" ;> Btw., where did Rossi, Hotch and Reid went gone in the middle of the episode? Didn't like much this one. The plot was good, but Ellie showing up in BAU was ridiculous and impossible.
More Prentiss please! We have only two XX cuties and the alpha male one doesn't get enough attention!
I never said that there was too much Hotch and Reid in this season. I said I'm GLAD that there isn't so far, because there has been a ton of it in the past.
I'm glad they're breaking away from it.
Compromising Positions wasn't Morgan/Prentiss either. It was Morgan/Garcia. lol.
I LOOVED that "og" scene. That was good quality writing.
Also, how is Ellie getting into the BAU so impossible?
Do you think they're gonna detain a little girl who has Derek Morgan's business card, as well as his text messages on her phone?
There WAS an agent in a suit standing there with her when Morgan and Prentiss spotted her after all.
I'm sure they questioned her to start with, and then let her go see Morgan.
Hotch is the central character of CM, like it or not, and no amount of denial will ever change that. About the shooting of Flynn, let's just say Morgan wanted his revenge and he got it. Once he went in there there was no way Flynn was walking out of there alive. But this is not the place or the time to discuss that.
Back to this episode, the case was good and the mom was great in the role. It was great to see that she managed to keep her cool enough to survive and save her kids. Kudos to the guest star and the new writer for that. But there are some inconsistencies character-wise that I felt were out of place.
I join the others in not particularly appreciating the emotional blackmail Morgan is using on Hotch. I don't like the picture it paints about either one of them. Does someone seriously think the two situations are comparable? It was a low blow and it's the second time it happened. Since when does Hotch allow that? Is Hotch turning into an easy to manipulate character for whoever knows his weak spot? I can only hope it's the last time this happens.
As many before me I am glad to see this arc over. I hope we'll see more of Hotch, Prentiss and Rossi in the next episodes and I hope the issue about Grcia's brothers will be cleared up soon.
Can't wait for next week's Halloween episode. The promo looked very interesting.
Cheeto said...
I don't understand why people are complaining there's too much Hotch and Reid this season LOL.
6.01 "The Longest Night" (Morgan-Centric)
6.02 "JJ" (JJ-Centric)
6.03 "Remembrance of Things Past" (Rossi-Centric)
6.04 "Compromising Positions" (a lot of Morgan and Prentiss)
6.05 "Safe Haven" (again, a lot of Morgan)
Cheeto, I agree with you, there hasn't been too much Hotch/Reid this season. There has been a lot of Hotch/Reid in the series or in the past seasons. However, not nearly too much this season. But I have a feeling that's gonna change soon, I think the writers are building up to something.
There was absolutely no emotional blackmail, and Hotch was not weak. It was also not a low blow.
It's funny how those scenes got overly inflated and people are not claiming them to be things that they weren't.
Julie, no one said Hotch wasn't the central character. Sammy and/or Megan said Hotch IS Criminal Minds. Well Hotch is not Criminal Minds and the show doesn't revolve around him, and no amount of denial will ever change that. LOL!!
You said there was no way Flynn was walking out of there alive. You are absolutely correct! Flynn wasn't walking out alive because Flynn didn't want to! If he did, he would have surrendered when he had the chance, and he had plenty of chances! He wanted to get shot dead, so he got shot dead. But this is not the place or the time to discuss that. LMAO!
Lady M
Of course I'm going to say I liked. I'm from Nebraska. Unfortunately that is why they had to change the safe haven law. We had people from other states dropping their children off in our state. Good job people, YOU MADE US PROUD!!
Julie, there's no emotional blackmail. There never was and never will be. You may not have liked what Morgan said, but calling it emotional blackmail? Really?? Hotch is no weakling, he is a real man. An alpha male, he will not let anyone use his love for his beautiful little boy to get their way with him. Not gonna happen. And Morgan would not do that to him. They have more than just a working relationship. That team is a family.
These preposterous claims are pointing to some underlying Morgan hate.
Hopefully, after the seasons of Reid, Gideon, and Hotch, this will be the season of Morgan!
MOORE MORGAN!!! =D
Excellent episode all around!
I don't understand people "seeing/hearing" Morgan guilting Hotch. Did Hotch look like he had been disrespected? No. He was fine. Hotch is GREAT!!!
No, Morgan was NOT entitled to any sort of revenge on Flynn. Law enforcement officers are not vigilantes who are free to mete out their own personal idea of justice, just because a criminal bested them, or attacked them in any way. That is why we have the justice system we do, to deal with criminals. Morgan shouldn't have even been in that room with Flynn at the end, because he was way too emotionally involved and had been made a victim. It should have been Rossi or even Hotch there talking Flynn down. What Hotch did to Foyet MAY be considered revenge, but he was also protecting Jack, because Foyet would have killed him.
As for the "excess" of Reid and Hotch, there has been a surfeit of Reid since season 4, and there don't seem to be any Reid-centric stories on the horizon. I am all for learning about other character's backgrounds, but Reid's character hasn't been at the forefront in over a year (with the exception of last year's "The Uncanny Valley").
I honestly think that Hotch's failure to confront his trauma with Foyet is a deliberate act on the part of the writers. Hotch is the quintessential alpha male, and alpha males do not voluntarily confront their emotions unless events forced them to. I think that may be Hotch's secret- that he is still struggling to recover and something in his personal or professional life will trigger something in him that will force him to accept therapy.
LaShawna, are you saying that Morgan killed Flynn for revenge? That he acted like a vigilante? That Flynn was not given a chance to surrender??? Would things have ended differently if Hotch or Rossi went instead?? I just want to be clear about what you're saying.
Lady M
@ LaShawna
From a storyline standpoint, Morgan WAS entitled to his revenge, and Flynn specifically asked for Morgan to go into the house, if you can recall. Morgan didn't just go in because he felt like it.
Flynn had two victims, and wanted Morgan in the house, and could quite possibly have killed them had he not gotten what he wanted.
Hotch nor Rossi had no business in the house taking Flynn down, because it wasn't their fight, and they weren't asked to be sent in. That would have been stupid from a storyline standpoint.
Morgan's actions were just as justified as Hotch's.
If you've been warned to surrender and drop your weapon, and you do the exact opposite, the police have a right to fire.
Damn .GunD!! You are on it today!!! Spot on!! I have to admit, I am loving your comments!!
Lady M
does anyone have any idea what the song/music video at the beginning of the episode was, it is driving me insane and I can't find it anywere!
.gunD:
ooops, yeah that was what I meant, Morgan and Garcia not Morgan and Prentiss (durr! *slaps self on forehead* LOL). I was just about to take a much needed nap when I posted that, as was evident. LOL!! I do agree with you that Morgan's character development has been in much need of some TLC. He did get a bit of screen time in S5 but it was not fulfilling since it was mostly centered around Tamara Barnes and being temp Unit Chief, both of which most people did not like. LOL. I have enjoyed Morgan's tender side this season, particularly the growth in the dynamic of his relationship with Hotch. All hail The Hotch!! :) (and I too loved that "O.G." scene... so cute!)
Anonymous:
I sure hope you're right. I can't wait for the Hotch and Jack scenes. I love Hotch and Jack scenes. And we are long overdue for some scenes in which Hotch deals (or, in his case, DOESN'T deal... LOL) with the effects of Reaper and Haley.
I am not saying that it would have ended differently if Rossi or Hotch had gone in. I do agree that Flynn was heading towards a suicide by cop scenario. But I stand by my belief that Morgan should not have been the one to confront Flynn since he was too emotionally involved, because he was victimized by Flynn. It gives the impression Morgan was out for revenge, particularly since he shot Flynn so many times. I just don't think that a cop personally involved in a case in real life would have been allowed to go in there at all.
I loved this episode. I thought that the kid was super creepy and did a great job. I too am glad that the Ellie storyline is over. It didn't really catch my interest at all.
I also think that Reid needs a story this season. There hasn't been a Reid episode for a long time. I only think this because I find his character fascinating. There aren't a lot of characters like him - he's just so different. There is more to tell about this genius with a disturbed upbringing and I would love to learn more.
I also miss the chemistry that Morgan and Reid had in the earlier seasons. They had great chemistry. I would love to see that again.
Other than that I am loving season 6 so far!
And when did we start letting the criminals dictate our law enforcement response? Remember how Rossi didn't want to be the one to negotiate with Cyrus, because Emily and Reid were inside, so he was emotionally invovled? It's the same thing. Morgan was way too emotionally involved with Flynn. Law enforcement is not supposed to be about emotional reactions, but an objective implementation of the law.
I personally loved this episode.
The story in itself was great and I loved Sterling Beaumon in the role of the unsub, he did a good job.
Also, Nancy was such a clever and heartwarming character. I loved how she talked to Jeremy, how she tried to calm him down in the car. I found her extremely convincing and I'm glad she survived.
The whole debate about nature versus nurture was very well done too. I can't help but put some blame on Jeremy's mother.
I'm not saying that there wasn't something wrong with Jeremy to begin with, but his mother's attitude didn't help.
I liked the subplot with Morgan and Ellie, it wasn't overdone in my opinion.
The only thing that seems a little far-fetched is Ellie managing to get past airport security by sticking near another family.
But I like Morgan's caring side and he has always been good with kids. It was great to see him trying to help Ellie.
I'm not under the impression that Morgan tried to make Hotch feel 'guilty' by "using" Jack as an example. And Hotch and Morgan have a great relationship.
Now, I would like Hotch and Reid to have more personal moments too because it has been a really long time since those two had those.
I don't think people should blame a character for his/her screen time.
For me the first two seasons felt extremely centered around Gideon anyway.
I missed Reid a lot last year, so I'll be delighted if we see more of him this season.
Ed. Bernero said in an interview that even if the secrets aren't going to hold the same weight (some will be deeper than others) they weren't planing on focusing more on a character than on the others. For me this is a great news.
And season six episodes feel very 'team centric' so far, at least for me.
And those are the kind of episodes I prefer.
There wasn't much of Reid in 'The Longest Night' or 'Remembrance of things past' which centered more around Rossi.
Maybe Rossi had less to do than the others in 'Compromising positions'.
Hotch didn't have such a big role in 'Safe haven' but he'll probably have a bigger role in next week episode.
I think that the writers are trying to find a balance, and it's great in my opinion.
Finale note, is it me or did Reid look sick in this episode ?
I know that the bags under his eyes and the paleness is quite usual with him (and I really don't mind, it 'suits' him in a way), but throughout the episode he really didn't look alright. He even seemed to be in pain and/or plainly exhausted at the beginning when Garcia was debriefing the team.
"Also, attacking Morgan for killing Flynn, but defending Hotch is such a double standard. Flynn had two victims held hostage at gunpoint. What the hell else was he supposed to do? He requested Flynn surrender numerous times, before realizing what Flynn had planned all along, suicide by cop. "You point that gun at them and I will kill you, and that is another promise." That was his warning. So, he got his revenge with the only option available to him, and it was sweet for those who wanted to see it. How is that wrong? Morgan didn't kill Flynn without cause, and to suggest so, is ridiculous."
What is wrong is that you imply that Morgan killed for revenge, your words "So he got his revenge" That is what is wrong. the day Morgan kills offenders for revenge is the day he need to have his ass kicked out of the BAU.
"Last but not least, Morgan was NOT using emotional blackmail against Hotch, and in suggesting so, suggests bias. Having someone look at an analogy isn't emotional blackmail. Morgan had an excellent point. Put yourself in Spicer's shoes, and what if it were Jack instead of Ellie? Would you be happy with that's going on? Hotch realized Morgan was right. What was happening with Ellie was wrong, and Morgan was in a position to try and make things right, and there's nothing wrong with that. Suggesting so, suggests bias. "
Morgan had to justify his actions in the season opener by bringing up how the team did back up Hotch against Foyet. Why would Morgan use that as a justification if he is in the right? Why not say to Hotch ' hey man the bastard got some innocents people there, we gotta do something before he killed them!' Hotch would have given the green light to Morgan to go. As for Morgan feeling responsible for Ellie because Spicer's asked him to do so that is so contrived. Morgan had no emtional attachment to the Spicers and no legal reasons to take care of Ellie. if JJ or Hotch had asked him that I would have understand. he is their colleagues and friends, not Spicer. Why do you think Prentiss was against Morgan getting involved with the girl? She knew Morgan was wrong.
"More Morgan, Prentiss, and Garcia plz."
Sure but hey the Hotch and Reid fans want some screen time for the fav too.
And yes, Criminal Minds is not about Aaron Hotchner, nope Aaron Hotchner and Spencer Reid are Criminal Minds!
Sammy
Cheeto said 'we need MOAR Hotch please. LOL'
Amen to that!
Morgan had LOTS of screen time this season as did garcia. lets give some to Hotch Reid and Prentiss,
Diane
@.GunD
"From a storyline standpoint, Morgan WAS entitled to his revenge, and Flynn specifically asked for Morgan to go into the house, if you can recall. Morgan didn't just go in because he felt like it. "
that is what I object, the fact that Morgan was in your word entitled to have his revenge, that as you said "Hotch nor Rossi had no business in the house taking Flynn down, because it wasn't their fight, and they weren't asked to be sent in. That would have been stupid from a storyline standpoint."
Morgan should never have have been allowed in that house because the case was no longer just a case for him but something personal.
and Hotch is NEVER asked to be send in, he SEND people in, he IS the team leader afterall!
And I do not hate Morgan, actually I until this season liked his relationship with Hotch.
Sammy
For annonymous who wanted to know the song at the start, 'Money Grabber' by Fitz and the Tantrums.
Never heard of them until I saw them on CM and now I cannot stop listening to their music!
Sammy
Thus far, the new season feels (to me) like a series of disjointed eps (even though there is some attempt at linkage) aimed at achieving 'stand-alone' status, and as such, feels quite...hollow and lacking in depth. It's not even a case of 'same old same old'. I miss the meaty (and less visually grisly) eps of past seasons. Everything now seems sensationalist - almost veering towards the unnecessary flashiness of, say, CSI: Miami.
We don't need a train of high profile guest stars or pimping of the opening credits to keep us on track. We need to get back that nitty-gritty profiling, and the real warmth (and sometimes discontent) between team members.
This particular episode - well, I agree with those who have felt that the Morgan/Ellie storyline has been rushed and poorly dealt with. Teen unsub was very, very disturbing, but many of the scenes provided a gross-out factor, but lacked the fascinating and gripping feel of 'A Shade of Gray', for example, which dealt with a similar topic.
I miss JJ terribly - her absence is deeply felt here.
I adore Garcia, but am growing a little tired of the over-emphasis on her role(s), perhaps in prep for her crossover to the SPINOFF OF DOOM. I sense there is more of this to come. Yawn.
@ Lady M
Thanks.
Many of the bloggers are gonna try and demonize Morgan anyways, so I just decided to post my two sense and provide some much needed defense.
They're gonna try and spin most of what he does as wrong, and say there needs to be less of him on the show.
There has been less of him on the show, up until this season, and I'm glad, and I hope that even if the Ellie storyline is over, which I hope its not, they continue to shine the spotlight on him and give him more development.
Before the 5th and 6th Seasons, he was just the black guy who kicked down doors, tackled unsubs, and questioned everybody's decisions.
Season 5 we found out that as Unit Chief, he was outstanding, as much as the haterz will not admit it. He was a natural born leader, and I actually thought he was eons better than Hotch in that role, and would have loved to see it expanded. It was awesome.
We know enough about Reid. Reid's been a key part in a ton of episodes. We know more about Reid than Rossi, Garcia, Prentiss, and Morgan COMBINED. Hotch as well.
@ LaShawna and Sammy - I stand by what I said, and you're absolutely wrong and biased. Morgan wasn't wrong for gunning down Flynn, and there wasn't anything wrong with him going in the house, because the unsub had two hostages, and wanted Morgan in the house. It makes total sense from a reality standpoint, and is even better from a storyline standpoint. The revenge I'm talking about is through the storyline standpoint. Anything else, like some of the crap you suggested, would have been idiotic, and would have ruined the storyline completely. I don't give a crap how "personal" it was, Morgan got his opportunity the minute Flynn called and said he wanted Morgan in the house, and it was WRONG of Hotch to try and stop him from going in there.
They didn't argue with Hotch going in to face Foyet, Hotch shouldn't have argued with Morgan going in to face Flynn.
Morgan was right that time, was right last night when he gave Hotch the analogy, and that's the way it is.
Spin it however you like, but it doesn't matter.
BTW, Can't WAIT to see what his secret is, because although we've gotten the Ellie storyline, we haven't even gotten to his secret yet.
I do find these debates quite interesting.
Wow! GunD & F, your names are apropos… The scenario you describe is straight out of the Wild Wild West. One gunslinger gets to call out another gunslinger; and sheriff and his deputies are supposed to stand back and watch the gunslingers quick draw and the fastest gun is left standing.
Come on, you can’t really believe a law enforcement officer is entitled to revenge. In Hotch’s case, it really was self-defense. Foyet invaded his home, killed his wife and was trying to kill him and his son.
Morgan entered a strange home after telling Hotch he knew Flynn didn’t want to hurt him. Since Morgan knew Flynn wasn’t going to hurt him; he also knew he wasn’t going to let Flynn leave there alive; and Flynn didn’t want to leave there alive.
Any way you look at it, Morgan should not have been the one to enter the home. He pulled the guilt card on Hotch and Hotch foolishly relented. Hotch shouldn’t have because he knew Morgan’s was too involved, especially since Flynn asked for him; it had become a game of cat and mouse between the two of them.
And to say “Hotch nor Rossi had no business taking Flynn down” demonstrates how incongruous this argument has become.
No one had the right to take down the unsub, not Hotch, not Rossi, and especially not Morgan. They should have been trying to arrest him. The unsub is not suppose to be able to call out or choose his challenger/executioner as in old Westerns like Gunsmoke or Bonanza. FBI agents, police officers are not modern-day gunslingers; we have laws now that are supposed to regulate and guide the behavior of law enforcement.
And for those who say Criminal Minds has 6/7 cast members; and they are all equal, the US Constitution says every man is created equal; but most of us don’t have Bill Gate’s or Steve Job’s money or their know-how. Sometimes equal doesn’t always mean the same; and in the case of Criminal Minds, Hotch is one of six, but he is the unquestioned lead.
So far Season 6 has been more Morgan-centered, followed by Garcia. Reid and Prentiss have played the role of sidekick; and Hotch has been the resident chief mostly trapped at headquarters. For me, there is never enough Hotch; but I do like quality team interaction. I also miss the Hotch/Prentiss scenes and hope there will be some Prentiss-centered stories where Hotch rides shotgun for her like Morgan does for Garcia.
And I like and agree with the Hotch line for upcoming episodes, “Prentiss, you’re with me.” It would be nice to hear it at least every once in a while.
It really irritates me that people think that the situation of Morgan and Flynn was similar to Hotch and Foyet. There is no similarity. When Morgan said to Hotch to let him go in without backup it was because that is what they allowed Hotch to do a year earlier against the psychotic killer with the child who went to confront his father. It is a matter of trust to allow one of your team to confront a killer alone. Hotch going after Foyet was different. He heard his ex-wife being killed and instead of waiting for his team to arrive to back him up he went into the house alone to find and rescue his son. Morgan's reasonings was different. He was going in to confront the killer who went after him and killed a father police officer. It reminded him more of his own desire to revenge on the man who killed his own father police officer. But he had the backup there to go with him. He asked to go in alone because of his own feelings to revenge against his fathers killer. He asked to be trusted to do that just as when Hotch went into the house with the killer alone and without backup or even a bullet vest on. It is not the same as when he was trying to protect his son.
@ sdwally - You and many others took my comment out of context, and you know it. I never suggested Rossi or Hotch take Flynn down in the first place. Some other person did, and it would have been out of place to the max for them to do so.
Screw the Law Enforcement principals you're using to defend your argument. You're acting as if Morgan broke the law. He was well within the law to do what he did, and the way he used it was brilliant. Who gives a crap how personal it was. It was a storyline. It was SUPPOSE to be personal. He didn't break the law, the Flynn didn't get the opportunity to hurt anyone else, The victims and Ellie were safe, and all is right with the world.
We're only four episodes into Season 6. How is the whole Season Morgan centered? We're not even half way through yet. o_O
Also, your U.S. Constitution analogy is a fail, and has nothing to do with a show with a full cast.
Thomas Gibson is NOT the star of Criminal Minds, and he isn't the only member of that team, plain and simple.
To GunD
If Thomas Gibson isn't the start of the show then why is his name at the end of the credit with a 'and'? Anyone who knows something about showbusiness will tell you that is to emphasize the statut of lead on a show.
as for the rest of your arguments about Morgans's actions, you claim bias from others, from what I have read so far, the bias towards Morgan is very clear in your posts.
the rest of your 'arguments' well just to think someone in the Law & enforcement is justified to get his/her revenge that is not justice but vigilante.
and that is all I will say on this.
Dan
Nothing Morgan did was vigilante, just face facts.
He was well within the confines of the law, and his job, and gave Flynn plenty of chances to surrender.
He who who does the exact opposite does so at his peril no matter who the law enforcement officer is, plain and simple.
And, you're absolutely right. I forgot one word. MAIN star. This show isn't the same as a show such as "Everybody Hates Chris" or "George Lopez," where it's emphasized who the main star is. There is a whole team of profilers, and the show is about THEIR lives, as well as how they solve cases by diving into the mind of a criminal. Nowhere does it say it's supposed to be all about Hotch, despite the wording of the credits.
Also, a fun little fact here, the whole argument is about Morgan in the first place. I'm defending Morgan, so of course my posts are gonna seem "biased."
I, also, don't get the "too much Hotch/Reid" comments. Last season there was almost no Reid, and as for Hotch, he is the lead and is expected to have a lot of screen time. I am a totally unbiased party, love everyone, but I do believe Hotch and Reid are the two most dynamic roles on the show. Leader and boy genius get brownie points for being interesting and extremely well-acted.
That being said, I LOVE all the characters and think the show does a good job of spotlighting diff characters at diff times.
^agreed. Yes this is a team but Hotch is the leader so I expect to see lots of him in episodes just like I expect to see lots of Dan Taylor on CSI:NY, Gibbs on NCIS etc..That said, I like when the spotlight is shined on other team members as well. This season is so far heavy on Morgan and Garcia, which was good but let other shine too. How about Prentiss who had very little to do so far this season? Or Reid who didn't have much last season and still hasn't had much this season? Or Hotch who been more of a supporting player this season. This might be an assemble but like any group/team it need a leader and that leader is Hotch.
As for the episode, loved it except for the Morgan/Ellie thing. Just not realistic and that started from the season opener. If Prentiss was told by Hotch to not get involved with the girl on 'children of the dark', Hotch should have told Morgan the same thing. If anyone needed any proof that something is not right with Hotch (PTSD?) then his refusal to confront Morgan on this should raise the viewers attention that all is not well with our team leader.
The unsub was great, loved how creepy he was.
where went Hotch, Reid and Rossi in the middle of the episode? they just dissapeared, that was weird.
anyway, solid episode from a first time writer.
StandingUp
Hey there's a GunD and a GunF, I didn't want to misquote the wrong person; but you were making similar arguments, so my response attempted to encompass both.
However, your retort to "screw the law enforcement principles..." simply because Morgan didn't break any law, or perhaps because he simply got away with it, doesn't justify the actions taken on either Morgan's or Hotch's part. Morgan should not have been allowed to go in to get his revenge; and Hotch should have had more control over the situation to either direct him not to, and to send someone else in.
I agree, the dramatic effect would have been less thrilling; and TV takes dramatic license all the time; but it doesn't change the fact that this was a cavalier act that would not and should not be allowed by law enforcement.
If law enforcement agents shot all criminals dead before trial, we could save on the cost of trials; we guarantee that they don't hurt or kill anyone else; and we'd save taxpayers the cost of housing them for years. Those are all spinoff benefits if we allowed law enforcement to make shortshrift of dealing with unsubs and criminals.
Hey if Morgan can do it, why not all of them? There will always be shades of gray when dealing with these things; add to that the "blue wall" of justice, you can probably ensure that no law enforcement officer ever breaks any law.
But that is not how the game is played. Most officers have integrity and follow the principles of the law; they go in to arrest, not to exact revenge.
My U.S. Constitution reference demonstrate the broad-brush of the definition of equal; you can't get any higher. But even at its highest principle, equal does not mean the same.
A TV show is a mere microcosm employing the same principle, calling itself an ensemble and promoting a false equality. Everyone may appear to be equal; but that equal, if analyzed, will reveal major differences in various areas for the actors and the characters.
Convo is very intense in here, which is awesome. I think I'll be making a blogger profile just to be able to better keep up :)
PS: "sansub" was my verification word. so close to unsub :p
I would like to know why Alicia Kirk, who wrote the episode, does not know that Garcia has four brothers.
Loved the episode but that part was a shame. Its disappointing to see countinuity errors like that.
I don't know where all these ideas that there's been so much Hotch and Reid this season are coming from. Neither have really figured prominently in any episode. Reid was so very neglected last season that I think the fans deserve to see a little more of him this season. Last season was devoted mostly to Morgan and Hotch with the Foyet thing at the expense of the other characters.
I know Alicia Kirk is a new writer but do writers not get briefed on what is already known about the characters. The fact that she completely dismissed the fact that Garcia has four brothers shows a complete lack attention to any kind of detail. You'd think Kirsten, when she read the script would have remembered that four years ago she had brothers that used to be tadpoles.
The episode itself was okay, but not earth shattering.
I like this episode but not great as previous three.
I like the theme of the main case but feel like there is much more to be said and done about this case. Like, unsub boy's psychopathology and unsub's mother's psychopathology. What kind of mother blames one of twin fetuses for death of the other? Mothers almost always blame herself for the death of their fetuses. I think it would be more interesting if it had been explored more deeply in the episode. Child crimes are very disturbing and sensitive. I would have liked to see more explanation what made the boy such a monster and it would have been nice if I could see a little more sympathy for the unsub boy from Morgan (that said because he was the one who faced the unsub).
The other complain is that latter half of episode, it seemed like Morgan and Prentiss investigated the case alone (with help of Garcia) which felt really strange. It made this episode a little poor writing.
As Morgan-Ellie storyline, I think Morgan feels like Ellie is his own child which is I think very understandable because of what he had going through with Fynn case and his identification with her. And because of that, it was hard for Morgan to let Ellie go even with her own mother, but he knew that it was best for Ellie to stay with her own mother who loves her. And I think his emotion played out very well.
I also think that Hotch understands what Morgan feel for Ellie the way he handle Morgan. I love that plane scene between Morgan and Hotch.
But I want to say one thing to Morgan: You don't have to bring Jack to make Hotch the point, he trusts you more than that, Morgan.
As Hotch fan, I really love his way of leading the case (well not quite leading in this particular episode) and his way of handling team members as a leader and as a friend this season so far. And I totally understand that because JJ's gone, Hotch has to stay in Police station to handle JJ's job more than ever, but I would really like to see him interrogating the unsub and him in the field once in a while. I really really miss his interrogation.
And I also really really miss Hotch/Reid interaction.
Hope to see some in the future episodes.
Finally, as for Morgan killing Fynn in 6.01, I know it was justified shot and there was no other way, but part of me still confused because it looks like Morgan did it for revenge because of overshooting. Why the writer made Morgan shot Fynn multiple times is still very confusing.
You guys that are in here defending Hotch and bashing Morgan because of how they handled their emotions are WRONG.
And those who say their situations hold no similarity are in total denial.
You CANNOT say one was right and the other was wrong, just because of what character they are, because both actions could be considered "vigilante," by your standards.
Let's look at the scenarios.
With Hotch, Foyet tortured him, killed his wife, and then invaded his home. But Hotch managed to tackle him to the ground and Foyet SURRENDERED. Alot of you seem to leave that part out of your argument. Foyet offered a surrender, but Hotch continued to beat him to death. If you're gonna say what Morgan did was vigilante, what Hotch did was EVEN MORE vigilante, because he did it out of pure rage, after the criminal offered a surrender. Doesn't matter if Jack was involved. Foyet offered a surrender and Hotch should have arrested him by your logic and went for trial.
Now, a look at Morgan's. Morgan was personally involved, indeed, after what had happened to him, and what he had witness the unsub do. BUT, here are a few things in favor of his actions.
#1 - Flynn called him into the house. Morgan followed the profile, he knew Flynn would not hurt him, so why would he not go in? No matter how personally involved he was, why would they NOT let him go in if it was requested, and Flynn had two hostages he could have killed had Morgan not went in? That's a big risk, and Morgan knew what he was doing. He followed the profile. Saying he shouldn't have gone in is asinine.
#2 - Morgan offered to arrest Flynn MULTIPLE times. He did not just go in and shoot up the place out of rage. He did his job. When a criminal tries to kill victims, the police are then allowed to shoot. Doesn't matter the circumstance. Doesn't matter how personal it was. Morgan did his job, and you cannot deny that because you love Hotch over Morgan.
Nothing Morgan did was vigilante. In fact, Morgan should be commended for what he did, because unlike Hotch, he was able to hold it together and do his duty without snapping improperly. You cannot be that vigilante if you're already a law enforcement officer number 1, and if you've offered to arrest the suspect, number 2. That's a stupid accusation.
Had another cop went in, either Flynn would have killed the victims before hand, or the same events would have occurred.
Doesn't matter how many times Morgan shot Flynn. Flynn died nonetheless, and it was because he raised his gun at a victim.
A true vengeful vigilante would have gone in and raged, whether the criminal would have surrendered or not. Morgan did not do that, so your argument fails.
He did his job, and got his revenge in doing so, and as long as he did his job, and followed the rules of engagement, he was wrong in no way, shape, or form, despite how he felt. He effectively did his job, and everything turned out alright in the end, except for those who are trying to demean his character because they didn't want to see him get any revenge, because "law enforcement shouldn't be able to do that."
But you see, he followed the rules, and you can't shout that down, period.
Revenge or no revenge, he followed the letter of the law, and no man is above the law.
Lady M said...
Julie, no one said Hotch wasn't the central character. Sammy and/or Megan said Hotch IS Criminal Minds. Well Hotch is not Criminal Minds and the show doesn't revolve around him, and no amount of denial will ever change that. LOL!!
You said there was no way Flynn was walking out of there alive. You are absolutely correct! Flynn wasn't walking out alive because Flynn didn't want to! If he did, he would have surrendered when he had the chance, and he had plenty of chances! He wanted to get shot dead, so he got shot dead. But this is not the place or the time to discuss that. LMAO!
Lady M
I completely agree with what Lady M said to Julie. It should have been directed to Dan, Sammy, Jane, and Lashawna too!! LOL!!
I'm so glad Criminal Minds is so much better and more enjoyable than the "I'm making this up, because of what's going on in my life" slights.
GunD,
I'll try to explain this one last time; my problem isn't with what Morgan did when he shot
Flynn. My problem is with YOUR argument that Morgan was entitled to HIS REVENGE. You imply
that Morgan could kill a suspect out of revenge. NO, he or anyone else cannot. Plain and simple
and the Law is clear on that point. You can argue until the cows comes home, it won't change
the Law.
And to clarify what I wrote, Morgan keep using what happen to Hotch with Foyet to get his way.
He use it in the Flynn case when it was clear that Hotch didn't want to let Morgan go in that house.
Again, Morgan use Hotch protective feeling for his son Jack to justify getting involved in the life of a girl who ISN'T his daughter, doesn't matter how he feel, what promise to his dying father he made,legally he isn't her guardian. Morgan was wrong to use Jack to justify his involvement with Ellie.
Many viewers sees this, Prentiss saw this too and so did Hotch.
As for comparing the Flynn shooting to the death of Foyet, difference circustances, yes those are allowed in court of law. Morgan shot a man that refused to surrendered and was menacing the hostages.
I do not argue that Morgan was justified. What I argue is that if Morgan, as you imply shot Flynn out
of revenge than he was wrong. I personally think Morgan killed Flynn because of revenge, 9 rounds at close range is a very personal kill. can Morgan be accused of murder? No because it would be hard to prove Morgan killed
for revenge. Even if it cannot be proven, it doesn't make it any right. Hotch said that to Elle, who he knew killed Lee out of revenge but Hotch knew he couldn't prove it. The difference between your argument and mine is that for
you killing for revenge is fine. Not for me and not for the Law.
Hotch killed Foyet to save his life and his son life. Yes Foyet did offered to surrender but as Strauss who has no love for Hotch and who would love to get rid of him, said ' what do you believe would have happen if Foyet had been allowed to get off that floor?' She, and the two other two Agents with her accepted Hotch
explaination that he knew Foyet would have tried to kill his son. Did Hotch lose control while fighting with Foyet? Yes, he did. was it revenge? No, it was self defense and protecting his family. Something that is acceptable in a court of law, unlike revenge. THIS is my problem with Morgan's action and your argumentation.
Sammy
.GunD said...
#2 - Morgan offered to arrest Flynn MULTIPLE times. He did not just go in and shoot up the place out of rage. He did his job. When a criminal tries to kill victims, the police are then allowed to shoot. Doesn't matter the circumstance. Doesn't matter how personal it was. Morgan did his job, and you cannot deny that because you love Hotch over Morgan.
Doesn't matter how many times Morgan shot Flynn. Flynn died nonetheless, and it was because he raised his gun at a victim.
.GunD, I am soooo happy you're here and you got our man's back!!! You are so on it!! I agree completely!!!
Kury said...
Finally, as for Morgan killing Fynn in 6.01, I know it was justified shot and there was no other way, but part of me still confused because it looks like Morgan did it for revenge because of overshooting. Why the writer made Morgan shot Fynn multiple times is still very confusing.
We don't know for sure if it was revenge, but what we do no for sure is it was justified. That's really all that matters. Maybe he shot him multiple times to be sure Flynn would go down. Flynn was a rather large guy. And crazy as hell. Crazy don't die quick!! LOL!!!!
For those of you who still wanna believe that this is the "Hotch show" or the "Reid show" (Megan, Julie, Sammy, Kirsten, etc), might as well accept that it's not! Not this season!! LMFAO!!!
Winka
Lady M,
I should have put a smiley next to my comment when I said Hotch is Criminal Minds. He is not. What he is , is one of the central character and that cannot be denied.
It is an assemble and I'm glad some neglected characters got to shine so far this season. That said like Cheeto said, I'm a Hotch fan and yes I want 'moar Hotch!'
Nothing wrong with that. Just like nothing wrong with 'moar Reid!' 'Moar Prentiss!' etc..
Sammy
Sammy, your comments make no sense. Morgan didn't shoot Flynn out of revenge. If that was what he went in there for he would have started shooting from the get go. He didn't, and he gave him plenty of chances to surrender. Flynn didn't want no parts of it, and everyone who watched saw that and knows it.
I'm glad Foyet is dead, and I'm glad Hotch killed him. But Foyet did offer or try to surrender, unlike Flynn. Hotch was having none of it. He could have held him at gun point until backup arrived. Foyet could have went to a federal prison in a state other than Massachusetts. Jack would have been safe. But Hotch beat him to death. Out of revenge, plain and simple. And I'm glad he did!!! Just like I'm glad Morgan blew away Flynn. But Flynn was not a revenge kill. Not when he was holding 2 hostages at gun point. And not when he was aiming his weapon at Morgan.
Lady M
can I just say, loved the episode, the unsub was poor kid that turn out that way because of his mom hatred. Glad Ellie is gone and I want Morgan back as the door kicking, train tackling, action hero guy!
thanks!
Krusty
Lady M,
I do not agree with you that killing for revenge is good or acceptable that is my whole point. It isn't right of Morgan, Elle, Hotch, Reid, Rossi, Prentiss, JJ, Gideon or Garcia or anyone to kill out of revenge.
You don't see that Morgan went in that house to kill Flynn if given the chance and that the reason he did it was for revenge. Fine.
You think that Hotch killed Foyet out of revenge? I don't', it was self defense, Strauss agreed, the FBI agreed too.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Sammy
Sammy, you're providing some of the worst arguments ever.
My posts in no way shape or form are implying that Flynn was purely a revenge kill, and for you to say it is, but Hotch's wasn't, makes you look biased, because there is no denying that Hotch's wasn't self defense, it was rage and revenge.
We all know Morgan wanted revenge, and he could have gotten it by just beating the tar outta Flynn before arresting him. I'd have been much happier with that actually. LOL.
The fact of the matter is, Morgan killed to protect the victims, and would have had to have done so whether revenge was on his mind or not. And with that point being reiterated over and over and over again, you cannot continue to effectively deny that he did his job, in accordance with the law, as well as the rules of engagement, and the fact that you're using your interpretation of the law to back up your arguments makes you look foolish, because all he did was follow the law.
You raise your weapon towards an officer or another victim, the officer has a right to shoot to kill, if maiming won't work. Example would be the kid Morgan almost killed this week. That wasn't personal, but he looked the twerp right in the eyes, and said "If that knife even twitches I will put a bullet in your brain," and he damn well meant it, and legally, he would have been well within the law to do so.
Oh, and BTW, as for your comment earlier, .GunF was a typo that I didn't catch until later. Had no intention of posting with two different usernames. ;)
Lady M & GunD,
As a Prentiss fan, who is longing for more screen-time for her when it is her last season, I find your blatant attacks on fellow fans disturbing, especially now that you seem to be enjoying it with all the "lol"'s. Not one person has suggested LESS time for Morgan, only more time for their favorite, which is legitimate.
Furthermore, for you to tell fellow fans, whom you have never met, that they are incapable of speaking without bias is ludicrous. Whether or not it is true, this is not a forum to attack fellow fans. I'm surprised the blog owner lets you continue.
The CM cast consider themselves a family, on-screen and off. Perhaps ALL of the fans here should remember that and end what can no longer be termed 'friendly debate'.
Patti
Yes the BLOG OWNER is putting a stop to it now. Stop the argument. And at this point it is an argument.
This thread is for episode discussion
First of all, nobody is claiming that other fans are biased, Patti.
The arguing fans who say one is right and the other is wrong are biased. Don't spin this into something that it's not. Nobody is attacking other fans and nobody is certainly saying that all the fans are biased.
Don't blow this out of proportion.
Hope the Ellie/Morgan storyline is gone. I don't think it added anything, but only detracted.
Glad to see more interaction between the BAU members. Nice to see Reid back in action after being almost non-existent for most of last season.
Sammy said...
I do not agree with you that killing for revenge is good or acceptable that is my whole point.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Sammy, I never said killing for revenge is good. I said I was happy both unsubs are dead.
And I will agree to disagree. I would insert a smiley face, but I don't know how. Please believe that.
Patty said...
Lady M & GunD,
As a Prentiss fan, who is longing for more screen-time for her when it is her last season, I find your blatant attacks on fellow fans disturbing, especially now that you seem to be enjoying it with all the "lol"'s. Not one person has suggested LESS time for Morgan, only more time for their favorite, which is legitimate.
Furthermore, for you to tell fellow fans, whom you have never met, that they are incapable of speaking without bias is ludicrous. Whether or not it is true, this is not a forum to attack fellow fans. I'm surprised the blog owner lets you continue.
Patti
ARE YOU KIDDING???? Our blatant attacks??? We are attacking them, but they are not attacking us?? Yeah right!! I will not speak for .Gund (I sure I don't have too!!) but I did not say I want less screen time for anyone else!! And when other characters got majority of the screen time, like the first 5 seasons, I NEVER complained. Not once!! But now that some extra focus is being directed towards my favorite character, after all these years, it's a problem! I'm happy there's a lot more Morgan, and I'm happy there's a lot more Garcia. I will not apologize for it! I miss Reid, but I'm dealing with it. I never attacked anyone on this blog, but I did not and still do not agree with the comments about Hotch being Criminal Minds, or some of the things said about Morgan. And in defending him, I NEVER attacked or went at another character, because I love them all. I love the whole show. The LOL I wrote was just to keep it fun.
What you directed towards me was an attack, and very uncalled for!! This is not a forum to attack fellow fans. I'll be surprised if the blog owner lets you continue.
Lady M
STOP NOW OR I WILL CLOSE THIS THREAD AND DELETE ALL THE COMMENTS.
I'm so sick of others being allowed to make their negative comments about certain characters and towards other users, but the moment we try and defend them or disagree, we're the unruly ones, disturbing the peace.
We're the minority opinion, and just because we can argue effectively with the majority, now here comes the blog owner to shout us down and take sides with the majority.
I'm disgusted.
If you're gonna try and spin things into what they're totally not, and take sides in debates, or try to make things personal to try and stop an argument you're losing, or to stop someone else from not being able to voice their opinion, I feel sorry for you.
There's debating till the cows come home without taking things personal, and then there's taking the cheap route and making things personal to sliver your way out of a debate.
It's repulsive.
You Hotch and Reid heads don't want me commenting anymore. Fine.
I take solace in the notion that I'm not alone on this and that there are people who agree with me and see the injustice.
I'm not gonna sit quiet while the majority ruins my show, and complains when other characters who are usually in the background or on the sidelines finally are brought to the forefront.
This includes Morgan, Prentiss, Garcia, and Rossi.
Reid had anthrax, Reid was picked on as a kid, Reid thought his dad was a killer, Reid had nightmares, Reid's mom is a schizophrenic, Reid was Gideon's favorite, Reid held the key to freeing the victim, Reid has horrible aim, Reid isn't trusted with driving, Reid fell in love with a movie star, Reid can do magic, Reid was kidnapped, Reid was tortured, Reid was kidnapped again with Elle, Reid was kidnapped again with Prentiss....ENOUGH!
Reid has to be the most uninteresting overinflated character I think I've ever seen on a TV show, and I didn't start thinking that way until I had gotten enough of the Reid obsessors, as well as his hogging of air time that could be used to learn more about OTHER characters.
Thank God for this season, and I hope it continues to focus on others, and a Reid/Hotch storyline DOESN'T unfold AGAIN.
I also hope there's more to this Ellie/Morgan storyline than just him finding her mother, and her disappearing. I loved the storyline. I found it interesting, and a step away from the status quo.
Good day. :)
1. I don't have a favorite actor or character
2. This is a spoiler thread about the episode.
3. My stop it remark was directed at all the people participating in what I consider to be too hot an argument and not any one person
And argument gets too hot when people make it personal. Neither I nor Lady M were.
And as far as Sammy and I, we were arguing over Morgan and Hotch's actions. We both think each other's biased, and disagree, which is fair, and pretty much moot. But I NEVER said EVERYONE was biased.
I said certain notions were biased, and certain arguments were biased. Not individuals.
Nothing wrong with arguing or debating points if it doesn't become personal. Happens in politics all the time, and when it becomes personal, both sides look like idiots.
Nothing is taboo for me, and I'm outspoken and passionate.
Nobody insulted anyone here. There was no dirty name calling or anything like that, so let's just leave it at that.
I've seen uglier, I assure you.
I'm still disgusted with the show's character mentality in the past, and will continue to speak out against it.
However, I can say that so far this season, I'm not as disappointed, and have been happy thus far.
By all means, let each character have their own storyline here and there, but keep it equal. No one person is the main star of that show, no matter what the fan thinks, and it shouldn't become that. That's what I've been disappointed in in the past.
Why all the Reid hatred Gund? All the things you said happened to him like before season 5, there's been a serious dearth of Reid since like the past year or so. Us Reid fans also deserve some Reid time, its been long overdue. Morgan's my second fav after Reid and I have no problem with him whatsoever, but why hate on any of the other characters just because they're not Morgan?! They're all amazingly etched characters, and imho, Reid's in no way "uninteresting" or "overinflated" he's brilliant and I hope to see more of him in season 6.
Onto the episode, I loved it! It was super creepy and the actor playing Jeremy did an amazing job. I hope we see him again in the future. The last scene with Morgan and Ellie was really cute, the ending quote added a nice touch. "Stopping By The Woods On A Snowy Evening" is one of my favorite poems and to have a quote from that just made me really happy:) CM keeps getting better every week, can't wait for next week.
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