Criminal Minds spoiler thread for "Hopeless" starring Joe Mantegna, Thomas Gibson, Paget Brewster, Shemar Moore, A.J. Cook, Matthew Gray Gubler and Kirsten Vangsness.
"Hopeless" — A group of suspects with a pack mentality who kill for the thrill of it are the subjects of a BAU manhunt.
**Beware of spoilers in this thread**
88 comments:
This episode will certainely be very interesting. The social aspect of that kind of group is very different from gangs. Their behaviors are very odd. It's a criminal aspect we don't hear a lot about but it do existe unfortunately. Another awsome episode from are favorites writers, cast and crew. Looking forward to it!
I'm really looking forward to this one. I agree with jazzysofie - often the killers they hunt on CM are suffering from intense mental illness, so that you can see them as victims too, but these guys seem more to be about a social problem. In a way they're like something out of Buffy - vampirism or were-wolfism as a symbol of social malaise. Should be an unusual case.
this case looks very intriguing! can't wait!!
Can't wait to see the episode. Saw some promo on CTV and it look very disturbing.
Brigitte
This sounds so interesting, can´t wait to see the episode. Yahh
YES, been looking forward to this one!
Can't waite to see this episode.
Will have to tape it and watch
it when i get home from work
tonight. I am so excited.
Criminal Minds you really rock!
Why are Wednesdays always so long? Can't wait to see the ep tonight!
I can't wait! only another hour for me!
That kind of group dynamic is a fascinating topic. Looking forward to it :)
Great episode, sick unsubs. Awesome music at the end. About time Morgan gets some LOVING.......:D
Does anyone know the name of the song that played at the end??
I have noticed all through Season 4 and now in Season 5 that the team dynamic has been torn asunder. Hotch has no connection with his original team. It started way back in Angel Maker when it was Prentiss and Rossi who were the ones that came to Hotch's aid. For the whole season he did not have any interactions with Reid or Morgan that was not specifically case related. He talked to Morgan twice, once to say he wouldn't give him a recommendation for the job in New York and once after Omnivore which was really a requirement. With Reid it was even worse. He said "Welcome back" at the end of Memoriam and in to Hell and Back when Reid expressed concern for the outcome of the case he just told him to go back to work. This season has continued, with him snapping at Garcia and Morgan. Prentiss picks him up and drops him off, Rossi tells him there was a happy ending to the first case (oh and by the way one of your team was shot). The only comment he had for Reid was "How long have you got that? referromg to the brace on his knee. "Tonight it was Rossi and Prentiss that had a drink with him at the end of the episode. If this continues the whole "family" dynamic they keep talking about will be lost. I miss it.
Great episode. Really got the emotional side across. The feeling of helplessness, frustration, and anger about the senseless violence displayed by aggressive sociopaths.
Hotch has been fantastic after all he's gone through. That man is incredible! Morgan on the other hand got a bit on my nerves tonight. Geez, keep doubting your boss. You're the one who's in trouble! Garcia did good and so did Rossi (wish there was more of him tonight).
Great job CM producers, directors, writers, actors, stunt-crew, special effects miracle workers, helpers and all the rest of you wonderful people who have made CM such a big hit. Love you guys!!!
Another good episode...but can't wait for next weeks!
anyone else have horrible audio issues with this episode tonight? trying to figure out if it was my dvr or the broadcast!
Tonight episode was very interesting since it was dealing with a new type of crime that is not known has well as other type of crimes. Pack mentality killers are very different. The way they mistreated the people and the way they killed them by beating them with iron sticks or kicking them showed that they live with violence like it's normal for them. The filming is also an important part of it for them. They crave violence and they need to rewatched their murders. We also saw that for some law enforcment officers, it is not easy to deal with that sort of free violence. The scenes are gruesome and bloody in those cases. The team was awsome! The way they delt has much with the murders on one end and the police anger on the other was very professional. I really like the way Hotch handled the situation with the detective after the riot even thought he asked them to leave. We knew that Hotch wouldn't let go and it was very professional of him. Once again CM writters, actors and crew were AWSOME!
Really liked this episode. The scene with Morgan and Garcia was especially good.
I wasn't really thrilled with this episode. It seemed to lack the thrill and excitement of searching for the unsub when you know who they are from the beginning.
I agree with Anonymous above who said the team dynamic is being torn assunder. Hotch is especially getting on my nerves and I agree, you'd think he would have said more to Reid than "How long do you need that?" after the guy had been shot in the line of duty.
Of course I must admit to missing Reid terribly this season. I know MGG is on crutches but Reid can be brilliant and witty in a chair. I'm not expecting to see him go on raids but he's often stayed at the station and worked on the geographical profile, victimology and such. He could be giving his part of the profile sitting down. I just don't get why he gets only two or three lines an episode now.
Wasn't thrilled with Morgan in this episode or that woman, Tamara. I was with Garcia.
My feelings about this season are starting to be reflected in the title of this episode, hopeless!
I love how Garcia tried to protect Morgan. I don't think she was trying to accuss him of anything. I just think she saw it as a lose/lose situation. Morgan could get emotionally attached and ths sister could lean too much on him. All in all a good episode.
Morgan got way to close to the situation and Hotch was right to have the team leave. Their work was done and there was no way to stop the suicide by cop. Morgan was just way too close to the situation. Great to see that Hotch still sees the big picture.
The scenes with Morgan and Garcia were perfect. I do think things with them "are good."
To the viewer wondering about the song that plays at the end of the episode, it's "Heavy and Hanging" by Patterson Hood. He's the lead for the Drive-By Truckers (awesome Southern rock band, BTW), but this song is from his second solo album, Murdering Oscar (and Other Love Songs). Check him out and enjoy...
First - Andre, Tom, thank you for a great chat! I enjoyed learning more about your work. You guys bring the spice to the dish!
And what an episode! Very chilling and frightening - so yes, it was good!
I usually just want the unsubs to be caught - tonight I wasn't the least bit sorry to see them die violent deaths. I was surprised by the ending, though - the way the team handled it I mean.
I was also surprised by Morgan's behavior with the young woman who was the sister of one of the victims. It seemed realistic but was not what I would expect from him. And how he handled Garcia's warning...made me feel bad for her. She's such a sweetie!
And next week, oh my gosh...I can tell already, I'm going to be freaked out...in a great CM way! ;)
Thanks to everyone for a great show tonight.
Since the actress who plays the sister is on the credits list for the next episode I assume that there is going to be some type of relationship between her and Morgan. That could get tricky.
My only problem with the episode is that I never really understand what drove the unsubs to commit the crimes.
Enjoyed the episode tonight and the chat was fun. Thanks Andre and Tom. I hope you'll come talk to us again soon.
Gang mentality. I wonder what the stats are for group unsubs finding and bonding with each other. I liked the episode. The promo for next week is great. The season is off to a very strong start.
The title lived up to its name. The end with them walking slowly back to their SVU was great.
Good episode. Has anyone else noticed that there has been less gore and guts shown in season five so far? I like when they leave it our imaginations.
Garcia and Morgan equal perfect.
I do have to say that this didn't feel like the usual Mundy episode. He usually explores the unsubs' motivation and illness but there wasn't much of that in this episode.
Fantastic episode.
Great episode, with a very different type of crime. I like the actors who played the killers, they were chilling in how the played guys that killed only because it is fun. So typical of this of some youth today that think of beating homeless and setting them on fire is fun...
Loved how Garcia told Morgan he was making a mistake and to back away from a witness. Morgan should know better!
Good to see not all the detectives are happy with the way the BAU do things, of course the man was wrong.
Morgan, Morgan, Morgan, he was so wrong tonight, and he was left by himself by Rossi and Prentiss!
Not much reid in this one but then MGG been hurt and had to have surgeries so I don't mind. Hope he will get better soon.
Anyway, great work from the cast and crew and writer!
From the CTV promo, next week looks even better!
Brigitte
It was interesting to see Morgan not listen to Hotch and join the others in walking away from the house. They are definately setting Morgan up for a storyline. Yeah!
I love how that scene was in slow motion.
The lack of much Reid has certainly changed the feel of things. Not a bad thing but he is missed. I wanted to yell at Morgan to listen to Garcia.
I liked the way the profile was gathered, and the intensity between the PD and the BAU.
It's apparent that the team needs to re-bond, get their synchronicity back...the victim's sister and Morgan aren't going to help that situation any.
Good ep, excellent job by all the cast members.
I think I will be doing my own home repairs from now on. I wouldn't want to find a dead body in one of the walls of my house.
People what do you expect Hotch and everyone else to say to reid??? everytime they see him, talk about his injuries? No one is doing that to Hotch and the man was stabbed 9 times!
When Gideon was on crutches, the team didn't make a big deal out of it either. When Garcia was shot no one kept talking about it over and over.
The Reid injurie was addressed a few times and since it was written only because of MGG's injurie then I don't see why they should go back to it every week.
Brigitte
It isn't often that their profile turns out to be wrong but it was tonight. These unsubs did have jobs and weren't striking out at people just with money. Nice to see them get it wrong every now and again. I am looking forward to seeing what happens to the Reaper story and Hotch's family.
While I still cannot wait for Wednedays to come, I am having some discontent with this season. I, like a few others, am missing the "family attitude" of the team.
I just get a different feeling. I know he has a lot on his mind and has been through a lot, but he is too dark. I remember Morgan telling Reid that you never should get involved with anyone connected with their job, but seems to be doing it himself.
I still will be glad when it's next Wednesday at 8.
Thanks to Tom and Andre for a great chat! Hope you guys can do another one!
Hotchner08
Salli Richardson-Whitfield from "Eureka" did a great job. I hope she does become Morgan's girlfriend but I think it is more about empathy and sorrow.
love this show so much. thanks to andre and tom for coming into the chatroom and sharing with us tonight
such extreme variations in the opinions of this episode... can't wait to get home to watch it
First of all, thanks to Andre & to Tom for the chat tonight. It was great to get a picture of how all the pieces that go into creating our show come together.
Now the epi... not one of my favourites but I can't put my finger on why... I don't normally mind 'dark'... maybe its how annoying I found Morgan. He needs to listen to Garcia. And continually doubting his boss isn't endearing him to anyone. This behaviour is exactly why Morgan isn't leadership material.
Found the crotchety detective good. Not everyone is going to love the BAU folks so this was a nice angle. Also gave Hotch the chance to show he is still healing as he acknowledged that you can't lower yourself to the unsub level.
Yay!
Eh, this episode didn't really do it for me. I miss the family dynamic of the team that everyone keeps mentioning, and I just wasn't hooked on this one. Not alot of JJ or Reid. =/ But I loved Morgan in this, whether he is misunderstanding Hotch and going about this the wrong way or not.
Thanks a lot Andre and Tom for a great chat tonight. It was great having you here and I hope you come back soon.
The episode was good. The unsubs were very disturbing and the actors did a great job there.
I loved the scene between Garcia and Derek. It was great to see her stepping in as a friend and telling him to back off.
The scene at the end with Hotch, Emily and Rossi walking away from the crime scene and then having a drink, was great. It's good to see them interact like that again.
Why do many of you slam the show when Morgan get more story line?
that it that all I got to say.
What a fun episode we had tonight! Loved it, loved it, loved it. It's so good to see Hotch back in control of things.
I just have to say I don't agree with the people going after Hotch for not talking to Reid about his injuries, I think he's doing the right thing. Reid is a grown man and I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate mothering or hovering. Just as any other memeber of the team wouldn't. He doesn't need to be treated as a sick child that needs constant looking after, but as a man who can do his job despite an injury. They might worry, but these are things you just pick up upon, don't go around asking about them every single day. I'm sure it would get frustrating after a while. That doesn't mean they care any less. And besides, I don't recall Reid asking Hotch how he was when he came back to work.
Monique, I don't think anyone would be unhappy with Morgan getting a nice big storyline. I personally didn't like the idea of him hooking up with a victim's sister. I love me some Morgan but I want him to have a job related story.
I liked the episode. Not loved it. I thought the story was okay but the unsubs were under developed.
Loved Morgan tonight!! He'sso gorgeous, he makes me drool. And the scene between him and Garcia was awesome. Geez I wish those wuld get together. Afterall Garcia doesn;t carry a gun :) HOTCH IS boring h so boring. I really missed a Morgan/Reid scene. And Salli Richardson is gorgeous. I cannot wait til next week to see where the relationship goes. I really hope Garcia continues to get in Morgan's business cause hse's the one who truly loves him.
I'll have to watch it again.....not really impressed. Terrifying crimes and pretty much everything else was superficial. Did love Garcia and Morgan - hope she can shake him out of it. Hotch stil struggling is realistic to me. Reid was there hobbling around.
Eh... *shrug*
Too much violence, too much focus on the gore. I’m a die-hard CM fan, but I almost switched this episode off after the first five minutes. To give a fair judgement I would probably need to watch it again, but I am not inclined to do this anytime soon.
What I liked was softer but controlled Hotch who’s aware of the impact violence has on the cops and themselves and who tries to distance himself from it, but also apologizes to the cop for stepping onto his toes. I also enjoyed his scenes with the local detective, but I’m not sure how I feel about Hotch’s and Rossi’s reaction at the final stand-off. I actually liked that Morgan doubted Hotch at that moment, because I did as well, and it’s consistent with Morgan’s character; he was wary of Gideon’s behavior half a year after the Boston bombing in season 1.
What I did not like was HRP’s coping strategy of drinking in the office. Though I do understand it was a tough case that hit them all hard, I don’t appreciate this way to deal with it, and it’s not the first time that this behavior was shown, even if it was the first time in the office.
Morgan and Garcia were both great in this episode. Morgan was intense and while the victim’s sister clinged to him, I don’t believe he was really interested in her, he seemed tense (great body language!) and reserved to me which I really appreciate. Garcia first made me think she was just jealous, but her reasoning with Morgan really impressed me. It’s great how her spare time work with victims made a reappearance and gave valuable insight into their current case and how the victims feel. The profilers surely know all this, but it was a helpful reminder for the audience as well. The focus on one of the victims took a little bit from the edge of all that violence away, though for me it was not enough to counter balance it.
Also, what is it with unsubs committing suicide this season? We had suicide by cop in episode 1 and 4, suicide by hit man in episode 3 and suicidal Hotch in episode 2. This should fill the suicide quota for a while, don’t you think?
Reid on crutches at the crime scenes was ridiculous, I liked him much better with Garcia last week. He also needs a haircut - usually he got one for episode 2 of each season, why not this time? Looking forward to when MGG has recovered enough so that Reid can get more screen time again, miss my favorite character.
Hotch telling Garcia to scan social networking sites was love. Didn’t know he was even aware of their existence, but I guess for professional reasons he has to be up to date, even with that kind of stuff which I would guess is out of his personal comfort zone.
All in all, while our cast delivered, I did not like this episode, it’s a close match to HAT for me and that should say it all.
Not a bad episode, but I miss Reid too. I know that no one is at fault here.
But I really think that we need to see him interact more with his coworkers, with Hotch especially.
Their relationship was extremely cold last season, I hoped it would get better in season five.
And it's true that Hotch barely acknowledged him so far.
Please, correct this.
I really liked this episode. Morgan was absolutely great, I loved the way he worked on this case, and I loved how he supported the victim's sister. Anyway, she is nice, I think I'll like her. :)
HOTCH was amazing! I loved every piece of his reactions. He reminded me the "old" Hotch from the beginning. He was so controlled, but he was so sympathetic. He was a human again, not a have-no-feeling agent. But I have to confess at the end I was pretty surprised. Hotcht as leaving the whole behind and let the cops to kill the unsubs...hmmm... I know he had no other choice and he had Prentiss and Rossi by his side, but I still have doubts about his motivations.
But it was a good work, again! I absolutely love this season! Can't wait for more!
Thanks
Gabriella
Well, I really liked this one. They've worked hard to re-do the formulaic elements that had become hackneyed, such as the little round the table group scenes and the whole-team word-perfect delivery of the profile. The chopped-up uneven energy of this episode was a welcome change. I feel like I'm watching a show that someone has done fresh thinking on -- someone who cares to keep it true.
Rossi and Prentiss and Garcia, all three of them, they're taking the strain of the two who struggled most in this episode. That's not to criticise either Hotch or Morgan's reactions. Both stances made sense and were structural, to use the construction metaphor. In an episode about pack behaviour, it's good to see the members of the BAU acting out of a sense of individual responsibility, whether that's to an idea, or a feeling, or to each other.
To me the atmosphere in the team didn't seem fractured, it seemed under strain and different. Garcia took a chance with Morgan and she was good in that scene. Delivery of 'She's just so sad...', that was perfect and it was an intelligently simple explanation of what was happening.
Rossi really is the main strength and source of resilience for the team these days. He does it with a soft voice and a deal of attention to the dynamics of the team. 'You want to take your shot? Take it'. Characteristic Rossian sense of individual responsibility. Morgan's staying behind had to be a definite choice and he was free to take it. Rossi is so much at the heart of the team these days and I'm loving Mantegna.
I like how that team is shifting ground. To me, Hotch is pretty boring as a rule but this episode I liked his relationship, and the issues at stake, between him and the cop. All of that about becoming overly emotional in response to the violence and having to resist was in the right place and made good sense. The cop's attitude gave proper dimension to the thing.
Is it just me or was the video Unsub supposed to trigger thoughts about Bernero -- oh, I dunno, just the baldy head and the camera??? No? Surely not, Bernero seems such a sweet sweet guy. But all the same, there was this whole thing going on where they were looking at making films about violence.
Can understand the mythologised slow motion final shot of the three walking away from the scene. The violent images have had such power in the episode. It was necessary to give walking away from revenge as potent an image as violence had had before. Very cool and very cheesy too. Subtlety doesn't always work! In this case, it would have been underkill.
Oh, Morgan's reading of the Shakespeare line --terrific. That's how you do it. Words are actions. They mean something because they cost.
For me, the first two episodes of the Season were pulled in wrong directions by the Hotchner/Foyet matter (despite the great direction and case in 'Haunted'. These last two have been true story-telling. They've been more individual both in terms of the types of Unsub and in the nature of the telling but they've also been able to take up that Hotchner stuff with more confidence. I like very much what they're doing with the team dynamic and it's brave to change things.
Sarah
Hey all - where oh where is this CTV promo? The only one that seems to be on YouTube is the CBS one.
Thanks in advance.
Lena,
The CTV promo was shown after CM, as far as I know it isn't on web, yet.
Brigitte
Great episode!! very disturbing when we think that people can kill for their own pleasure! it doesn't make to me the same effect as serial killer who are killing because of a mental disorder... these 3 people here are just Monsters of inhumanity, incapable of feeling any empathy!!
In brief... violent but excellent episode, which show one more time the humanity in each Team's member! Great show as usual!!
(I hope my English is good enough to be understandable!)
I'm sure Garcia was worried about Morgan but I think she was more concerned for Tamara because she knows from being a victim's counselor that Tamara is very vulnerable. Its going to be interesting to see what happens now that Morgan hasn't heeded her warning.
First of all, a big thank you to Tom and Andre for coming to chat with us. It was a wonderful chat, and we hope to see you back soon!
This was a very emotional episode all around. I'm not squeamish in the least, but these unsubs and their crimes squicked me out a bit. In a good, CM type way, of couse.
While I loved the interaction between Morgan and Garcia, I couldn't help but feel bad for her throughout the whole ordeal. And of course he proved her right in the end.
The ending, with Hotch, Rossi and Prentiss? Loved it.
Thanks for another great episode, CM. Can't wait til next week!
Great episode! The violence was hard to watch, but done in such a way that the emotion of the senselessness shone through.
I have to say I am enjoying the changing team dynamic, and the way these cases are being shown and solved. It keeps the show fresh and interesting and adds new dimensions to the team members as characters.
Great episode and great season so far, definitely shaping up to be my favorite.
I liked this episode mainly because it was quite different from what we are used to. I think this season is going great because they have been changing and mixing things a bit and this keeps the show fresh.
I enjoyed Hotch´s interactions with the cop and how he is dealing with his problem. We got a more controlled yet understanding Hotch. Good job TG of at the same time showing us that his character still cares about what is going around but is hurting for his family. My favorite part is how Rossi and Prentiss follow him at the end. It was nice to see them sharing a drink at the end, both Rossi and Emily are doing a great job being supportive.
I usually like Morgan but was annoyed at him for still doubting Hotch, he has being doing this instead of trying to be supportive and have confidence and trust on a man who has never let him down. I can understand him getting attached to Tamara, because even since Foyet he has been acting kind of lost. Remember the last episode of last season.
Loved Garcia, such a sweet girl!
Missed JJ and Reid (although him I understand).
Another awesome episode!
I have to admit, it had me
creeped out at points, but i
enjoyed every minute of it,
from beginning to end. I couldn't
leave the tv, that is how
involved in it i was. Great job
all around by the cast; crew;
writers, and everyone involved
in the making of the episode.
Loved seeing Garcia personally
involved in this episode, and
how she informed Morgan about
not getting involved emotionally
with the victims, and then
asking him if they were ok later
on in the episode.
Nice to see Hotch back on his
game if only for an episode.
Great job Criminal Minds!
Keep up the awesome work, and
i can't waite to see what you
have in store for us next week!
Thanks so much to both Tom and Andre for taking the time to chat with us last night. It is so wonderful that we had the chance to get an inside perspective of the behind the scenes work. Truly appreciated the time! Thanks guys.
I thought this was a great epi - albeit a very disturbing storyline-worse than usual sickos.
I disagree with the naysayers making negative comments about Hotch and Morgan. I feel that we are seeing more of the human side to these characters and why not? After four years of this grueling and taxing work, why shouldn't they begin to act like normal people? Hotch misses his family and doubts himself because his work has cost him his family- Rossi reminded him of that last wk. Morgan is a big-hearted, sensitive man (remember in Boogeyman when he insisted on staying with the professor in her car while they worked to remove a bomb underneath? He doesn't always use the best judgment and maybe should not be the team leader but he truly CARES about people & I would want him on my team anytime!) He has seemingly gone partnerless for years with the poss exception of occas dates and I think he craves a relationship. Garcia was certainly on target with her insightful comments but maybe Morgan can't help himself? I can totally see this happening and more importantly, I want to see this. Gives the characters more dimension and holds my interest. I can't imagine that Morgan would let his job suffer anytime soon because of a poss love interest.
I miss Reid, too, but I believe these epis were probably written prior to his need for surg and they are doing what they can to include him. And I also agree, Matthew, you really need a haircut! and when you get one, you will get more air time! Hah, you are so handsome, I will take you anyway, sweetness, you are too damn cute for words! I did like him behind the scenes with Garcia last wk - that really worked. All in all, I think the season is off to a great start and I am loving it as much as I ever did. I am ADDICTED to this show and want to kill anyone who gets in my way of the TV on Wed. nite!
A really different episode. I really am enjoying the way they are dealving into each character's ability to handle cases. I guess those that are 'bored' by character development won't like it but it's great to try something new. Hotch is progressing in his recovery and TG is playing that part so well! The character is allowed to be multi-dimensional at last! And although I disagree with Morgan and feel there is an air of arrogance about him this season, it contrasts nicely with Hotch. No, the team isn't as close but it is realistic. Must be interesting for Hotch to see who really does still "have his back" after the attack. Great work CM!
Totally agree w/ you Gubegirl! Enough slamming of Hotch and Morgan. It is wonderful to see character growth, it keeps the show fresh. Keep it up TG/SM. The 100th epi should be a wild ride!
I really liked last nights episode. I can't say it's my favorite, but I really did like it. Never thought I would say this, but I really miss Reid, not enough of him tonight.
Hotch is so boring to me, and I use to like him. Trust and believe that I understand he has been through a lot. But so has Reid's character (shot, kidnapped, drugged, & tortured), and Garcia's (shot)!! Yet they manage to still...well, live! My heart aches that he can not be with his son, and I want to kill the Reaper myself. But he is not the only member on that team who has suffered. To me he is not really leading the team as before, Rossi is. Hotch is still incharge, but Rossi is holding it together. The scene with Hotch, Rossi, Prentiss walking away together and having a drink afterwards did nothing for me. The three of them are not the only members of the team, nor did they solve the case. The whole team did. All 7 members. It feels like they are pulling them apart, all because of what happened to Hotch? Not feeling it. Just my opinion.
Morgan. I love him, he is my favorite character (Garcia is a very strong second!). But him getting involved with Tamara is out of character for him. Not that they are definitely involved! Garcia was certainly correct to approach him about Tamara, whether she is wrong or right about her and Morgan. Their relationship is built on trust and love. Not a romantic love but a very strong one. He was on point with this case tonight and deserves much kudos!! Body in the wall of the baby's nursery??? SICK!!! I think he is getting way to much criticism on the board, IMO.
I too wish I knew what drove those freaks of nature to do such heinous crimes!! They truly were not human.
So a great episode. Not enough Reid or JJ, crimes were horrific, but still a great episode.
And I too will now be doing my own home repairs!!
Morgan not having Hotch's back??? Wow!! Morgan would take a bullet for Hotch and anyone else on that team. Some of Hotch's actions would make me doubt him too, but to suggest he does not have his back...well, we are all entitled to out opinion!
This episode certainly wasn't my favorite.
The storyline was alright, and I don't think that it was too 'gore' or 'gruesome' : disturbing, yes, but not too shocking.
I mostly disliked the end, with Hotch, Rossi and Prentiss walking away when the music starts. I found it stupid and ridiculous, I had the impression of watching an episode of 'CSI Miami'. It was SO overly done and overly played up ...
Also seeing those three sharing a drink at the end seemed wrong. Since the beginning of the season we see them 'bonding' and leaving the other members on their own.
I know that they have to do with MGG's injury, but that doesn't mean that they can't have Hotch and Reid having a talk.
Even if the fourth season Hotch and Reid barely talked to each other.
I just don't feel the family love in this team anymore. I really hope that the writers will try to have Reid interact more with the team members, and more particularly with Hotch.
I enjoyed the Morgan story line, and his conversation with Garcia.
Garcia is right : Tamara might be hurt if Morgan tries to help at first but leaves in the end. I enjoyed the fact that they mentioned Garcia's background as a victim's counselor.
And I can understand why Morgan questioned Hotch's decision, he's not one to trust people blindly.
Ok, loved last night's episode. I was interested in the case, and of course I loved the Hotch parts! I loved the connection between him and Detective Andrews and I LOVED him walking away at the end of the episode. I'm with what Rossi said 100% on that one. I was kind of pissed at Morgan for his comment; not so much that he doubted Hotch (because he's worried, and that's fine), but that he sounded so spiteful when he said it. That said, I see where he's coming from, because this case and episode were tough for him and Hotch walking away like that was out of the norm. I think Morgan just really wants thing to be normal again, so that he can feel that when he's going to have a meltdown of some kind (come on, he seemed very affected by this case), that Hotch will be there to take care of things for him.
The Morgan/Garcia tension made me sad, but I adore how they both started with, "you know I love you." :D
Great music at the end, and I love that Rossi, Prentiss and Hotch had drinks together in Hotch's office.
I do agree with one comment that mentioned the lack of team unity; I miss that, too. There have been so many good team interactions lately, but they have been stilted. There haven't been whole-team interactions for a while, and Morgan and Reid, and even JJ, seem to be separated from Hotch by some sort of insurmountable wall. I want that wall gone, damn it!
Anyway, I did love the episode, I am riding the high of four awesome episodes in a row.
The chat with Tom and Andre last night was just icing on the cake. Thank you so much guys for joining us, it was fascinating chat. I love talking to the cast, but the crew has their own unique skills and plenty of great stories to tell, too! Hope you come back soon. Thanks again.
Helen
I will say I liked this one, although the ending was somewhat confusing and might be judged rightly only once we see some of the ramifications play out.
In some of the episodes, such as "Normal" or "Haunted", we spend quite a lot of time with the unsubs and learn about their motivations, but in others, we deal mainly with the fallout, and this is one of them. It's the right type of unsub for this episode, because the theme is not the world's impact on the killers but the killers' impact on law enforcement. The violence is indeed stomach-churning, but it has a purpose, because we're meant to see how the various characters confront the reality of in-your-face brutality.
The lead detective on the case is understandably incensed at the carnage and is in no mood to finesse the job, and the manhunt ends in the hail of gunfire predicted by Morgan. The team handles the situation like professionals they are for the most part, but then there arises a curious schism between Morgan and the rest. One would expect Hotch to be the most revenge-minded, having been so recently the crime victim himself, but he repeatedly distances himself from becoming a part of the morass of violence, and he advises others to do the same. It comes off as an interesting bit of self-counseling from the same man who wrote the questions for the psych evals, and it unintentionally alienates the detective, who thinks it's aimed directly at him. Hotch later works to smooth it over, but we can see Rossi watching him, and can't help but wonder how the heart feels under the intellect for him to fail in his usual tact. But oddly enough, it's actually Morgan who ends up being drawn into the situation through his sympathy for Tamara, a sister of one of the victims. Garcia tries to warn him against becoming too close to her, but since his intentions are chivalrous, he fails to process what she's saying. Morgan and Tamara have a couple of key conversations. In one, Tamara asks what he would do if one of his sisters became a victim, and although he gives the "right" answer, that he would do everything he could to catch the perpetrators, there's a pause that leaves one to wonder. The other establishes that Morgan knows that the unsubs are likely to commit suicide by cop, and this news is greeted with grim approval from Tamara. By the time that the suspects are cornered by the police and FBI, Morgan is out of step with the others, identifying with those that want them put down instead of keeping his distance. He is startled when Hotch walks away -- and to be fair, so is the audience at first -- but also taken aback by the raw violence of the killers' deaths. He nevertheless shows up inappropriately on Tamara's doorstep that night (I'm sure she has a phone) to inform her that the killers have been dealt with. Well, only two of them died, which tells us that there will be a trial, and Garcia's warning will probably come back to haunt Morgan.
While Morgan is where he's not supposed to be, we see Prentiss, Rossi, and Hotch sharing a drink back at the office. While it's fairly endearing that Prentiss and Rossi are looking out for Hotch, this scene, coupled with the slightly over-the-top slow-mo shot of the three of them leaving the standoff, makes one wonder about the divisions developing among the team. They're not just leaving the shootout behind, they're also leaving Morgan behind. Symbolically speaking, that's not such a good thing.
I would have to agree with all the others who have commented on the family/team dynamic being significantly lessened. Last night I saw the re-run of L.D.S.K. on the Ion channel (which, by the way, has the most off-the-wall commercials. "Everywhere I've put Avacor, I've grown hair!!" *insert snortles and laughter here because I'm really a 12 year old masquerading in a 32 year old body* LOL.). Anyway, in that epi, I really enjoyed Hotch as the father figure-type to Reid. I would love to see more Hotch interaction with Reid and Morgan instead of Prentiss and Rossi all the time. Perhaps there was so little screen time for Reid because of The Gublenator missing some work time due to injury-related surgeries/doc appts and such?? I really hope they're not thinking of having anything romantic happen between Hotch and Prentiss. That would just be weird, similar to the Morgan/Garcia thing. It's cute to see Morgan and Garcia flirt but if they did get together that would be weird!! (For me at least) LOL. Besides, I think Hotch is totally still stuck on Haley (even though she is a total biznatch) and he's kind of the father figure-type to all of the team; he's the anchor. But now, because of the Reaper wreaking havoc on Hotch's life, he's freaking out inside and totally focused on how to get the Reaper and get his life back so I think that would explain why he is unable to give as much as he used to. I think normally he would express much more concern over his team's trials and injuries but he just can't right now because he's got so much on his mind. Also, I don't think that Hotch was "giving up" when he decided to leave. Honestly, I don't think they would have been able to convince the police to wait for them to try and talk down the perps because they were too bloodthirsty for revenge. However, whoever it was that questioned Hotch's motivation has an interesting point - perhaps he wanted the bad guys to bite the bullet instead of going through the system because that is the same fate he wishes for the Reaper. Hmmm.... but nah, I think Hotch just realized it was as far as it was gonna go, they don't really need BAU to add firepower to perps who are committing suicide by cop. As always, classy Hotch not wanting to step on Local chief's toes, but not letting the case go that easily. Hotch rocks!! (And it also helps that Thomas Gibson is SEXY. LOL)
I think Garcia's warning to Morgan is partly because of her crush on him and partly because of a valid concern. It's nice to see the team members' lives outside of work and their romantic attachments but hopefully not so much that it turns into just another soap opera-type show with everyone bonking everyone else. Oy!!
I would love to watch Glee, which is in the same time slot, but since I don't have DVR (yes, I live in the stone age), I choose Criminal Minds!! Woot!!! :)
RMF... Bullseye! Couldn't agree more about Hotch self-counselling.
It's interesting that Morgan is left behind in that scene. He's often the one who is thrown emotionally by shifts in the balance of power. He didn't want Gideon to return at the very start of CM. He certainly kicked out when Rossi came back to the BAU. He got all pulled out of shape when the NY job was being touted for himself. Now Hotch isn't behaving like Hotch and though Morgan might have sympathy for the guy, primarily it's his own alarm bells he's hearing. He seems to need someone to be strongly in charge even though on the face of it he resists authority.
So it's important here that he does have Rossi's permission to step out of line. ('You want to take your shot? Take it.') Rossi's treading a fine line between protecting Hotch through his trouble, and supporting Morgan in his reaction. Those two alphas turn out to be the two vulnerable ones!
In that vacuum, Tamara presents a simpler world where raw emotion makes sense of experience. It's her directness of feeling and the directness of purpose that he's drawn to? It didn't seem sexual to me...
Sarah
Hmmmm, not one of my favorites. Not just because of the lack of Reid saying anything remotely brilliant in the few scenes he has but maybe it didn't help to already know who the unsubs were.With all the clues available from the beginning, it wasn't suspenseful enough to hold interest for the entire hour to figure out the profile.
Mostly, the ending was strange.
It was weird for the team to just give up and walk away from trying to stop the unsubs from being killed in a blaze of glory in a death by cop scenario. It's like they agreed with the cops that these scumbags didn't deserve to live while in the past, they put their own life on the line with sympathetic unsubs like Owen or the Haunted Pharmacy killer.
It was just strange to me for them to think cops will be cops so let them have their way with the bad guys.I would like to think the team would be more fair-minded than that and fought harder to save the lives of even the most unredeemable scumbags.
AWESOME EPPY!!!! I couldn't tear my eyes away from the TV the whole time!
I think Garcia was a little jealous of Morgan and the lady he met! :P I love the scene where she approached him about it, and then later when she found out where he was.
LOVED LOVED LOVED the scene at the end of Hotch, Rossi, and Prentiss walking away. The music during that time was perfect.
Disappointed though that there was hardly any Reid. I know he can't really do anything right now, but there wasn't much of him showing his brilliant mind!
I think the scenes with Hotch and the detective were great. Especially at the end where he turns it over to him and they have that awesome walk away scene!
Thanks to Andre and Tom for joining us in the chat room last night. It was great to have you, and hope you can come again!
thinking about the whole "family dynamic" thing... perhaps they are just continuing on the arc started by Hotch's monologue in the season finale - about how many times could the team look into the abyss?
Maybe they are building up to a point of "this is the breaking point"
I don't know many families that could survive the stress and trauma our heroes have been through
Anonymous,
You are so right, this is a continuation of what the season final was about. People who are complaining should rewatch those episodes then they would get a clue as to what is going on.
Finally watched the episode, wow very disturbing, very dark. Those unsubs were very inhumans. their level of violence was almost unbearable.
Morgan is going into a direction that will have him in a collison course with Hotch and possibly the rest of the team. I would have expected him to know where the line is and not cross it when it came to getting involved with a victim relative. Happy that Garcia reminded him that he was wrong.
Hotch is still struggling, which is what I would expect from someone who is going through what he is going. In his case, the trauma is not just physical but emotional and the writers are doing a great job showing this and TG, whose is a very subtle actor, bring this out perfectly.
The ending was great, there was nothing they could have done to save the unsubs. Only thing to do for the team was to refuse to be part of their suicide by cops. Hotch, Rossi and Prentiss saw this and walked away, wish Morgan did too.
only complain is not about the episode but with the people complaining that there is not enough interraction between Hotch and Reid. Hotch is NOT Reid's father but his boss, Hotch shouldn't have to hold Reid's hand, the man is old enough to stand on its own. I don't understand why the Reid fans sees him as if he needs constant attention. He is a grown man not a teenager that need constant attention!
That said, love the show, season 5 is of a great start and can't wait for next week episode!
Daniel Adams
Must say I like Prentiss on the team. Very professional agent. Love that one can see her empathy (it's in complete contrast to the sociopathic murderers she's dealing with).
Hotch and Rossi have developed a great friendship. I always enjoy seeing them together. I really liked Hotch in this episode. How he apologized to the detective even though he didn't need to (shows his great character and humility), how he just walked away in the end, knowing better. The ending wasn't surprising. Even Morgan told the victim's sister that the unsubs probably will commit suicide by cop. Why then did Morgan have a problem with Hotch walking away?
Hotch is such a great example of what we want in an FBI agent. So refreshing to see someone with so much integrity on TV. That he is so popular gives me hope :)
Anonymous: I think you're right, and they are doing a really good job of getting that strain of the relationships across. It's coming through loud and clear!! LOL. It's just that it was so sudden, although I guess the "stressors" are the recent pig farm ordeal and the Reaper going after Hotch. I love that monologue by the way. I ♥ TG's voice. LOL. And then the ending when he's all "Sometimes the day ... just.... *gunshot* .... ends. *gasp*!! I bet all the fans (including me) got upset, worried that the writers were going to off Hotch.
Anyway, back to the "breaking point" thing - according to one of the blog posts on here about the 100th epi: "take the team full-circle back to an important issue raised in the pilot episode: whether it's possible to surround yourself with monsters and not become one." I wonder who this will be. Will it be Hotch? Eeeep!! Will the Reaper hurt his family? Or perhaps something happens to Morgan's new love interest? Hmmm.. ... .. anyway that is not such a new idea on the show. Elle had a breaking point and turned into a killer. Gideon also reached his breaking point, except he realized it before he became a monster. Still, it will be interesting how the rest of the team deals with their own breaking points. You're also right that not many families would be able to hold up under what our heroes have been through. And it's not just the agents that are heroes, but the people in their lives that give them the support and love they need to do what they do. I once had my mail stolen and received a call from a real live FBI agent. I remember it distinctly because it was around 7 pm so he was working late and he sounded so tired over the phone that I felt so badly for him. Made me want to bake some cookies and mail them. He was working stolen mail cases and he was that tired, I can't even imagine the people that deal with such harrowing events.
So that is the reality but TV doesn't always have to be super-realistic because oftentimes reality is so depressing. Especially with the current economy, sometimes people want to escape reality and IMHO it's understandable to like the CM family as it is and not have it torn asunder. So it's not that I'm complaining, or that I "need to get a clue". It's just my opinion which I have a right to. Also, I didn't say Hotch was Reid's father, I said he was a father-FIGURE. A mentor type. And no, I don't expect Hotch to hold Reid's hand. I think people need to chill and remember that we're all Criminal Minds fans here. Everyone will like and dislike different things about the show but in the end we're all fans of the show. GROUP HUG!!! LOL =P
This episode was not a favorite. A Clockwork Orange without the impact. They were bad, bad men, but they lacked the kind of tense dynamic that CM usually has with its unsubs. Morgan was really, really irritating in this episode, doing so many things against the team, Hotch and protocal. His "sympathetic face" is not intersting in the least anymore. Can't the writers grow out of having the black hunk always be a bleeding heart, lone morality guru and risk taker who disobeys both orders and common sense to do his "thang"??? Blah
The DC cop with an attitude was great and more realistic than anything else in this episode.
Lociloco
Lociloco I appreciate your comments. You made some good points, especially regarding Morgan. I thought the pack mentality and dynamic was interesting and well acted. I wish I could say the senseless violence and lack of emphathy displayed in the episode was unrealistic. Unfortunately it wasn't.
Finally got to watch the episode and I have mixed feelings about it. I am going to watch it again and then come back and post but I did want to say thank you for the great chat a few days ago!
Ok, I am really loving this season already. This season started off with a bang and hasnt stopped. This episode was very interesting and it was good to see that Hotch saw a similiar struggle he was going through in the detective. Hotch seems to be getting his head back on straight-still struggling-but knowing he needs to concentrate on the case and on getting his son back.
I thought it was totally badass the was that Emily, Hotch, and Dave walked down the street at the end of the episode. Totally awesome. And I liked how they gathered with glasses and a bottle of scotch in Hotch's office.
Feel bad for the tension between Morgan and Garcia though-thier banter brings a light aspect to the show.
Although this episode isn't going to be my favorite, I liked the way the subject was handled. Even if it was a little predictable what will come and the ending was kind of "western-ish", it was nice, well made, classical story. What I didn't like about the episode was the obvious "this is going to be a new relationship" line with Morgan and that sister of one victim. Not that I don't wish Morgan some happines in life, but I was more on Garcia's side of thing, I would expect Morgan to behave more professionaly than he did, no matter how much he liked her.
What I really loved about this episode was the chat with Andre Ellingson and Tom Elliot later in the night, I want to thank you guys very much for joining us in the chatroom and hope to see you there again someday in the future. Thank you also for your exellent work on the show. Special effects are one of the things, that interrests me most, and I'm anxious to see more of your stuff on the show! Wish you good luck with your work.
I loved the end scene of Hotch walking away and Rossi and Prentiss going with him. I think it does show how close the team really is.... although I see a shift in the team coming soon, not sure if I'm excited to see it happen.
this was an interesting yet different episode...i have to agree with the whole family dynamic others are mentioning. They need to get it back to work perfectly as a group.
I'm looking forward to the next episode ^^
Where is the new episode?
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