Criminal Minds spoiler thread for "Corazon" written by Katarina Wittich and starring Joe Mantegna, Thomas Gibson, Paget Brewster, Shemar Moore, Matthew Gray Gubler and Kirsten Vangsness.
**Beware! There will be spoilers in the comments :)
Wednesday, January 19, 2011
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471 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 471 of 471Gubegirl- it was nothing like a petition or anything like that. People were talking about how thankful they were for ION and then somebody mentioned that the night of the spin-off they were going to watch an old episode of CM instead. Then someone else said that a movement should be started to get as many people possible to switch to ION that night.
I THINK IT IS A GREAT IDEA AND NO REASON TO SAY SORRY. I JUST WANT THEM TO ACTUALLY SEE WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING AND THEY ALL READ THIS FORUM.
HUGS!
Thanks for allowing us to voice our opinion, CMFan.
I didn't mind the episode from a case-profiling angle but I'm really missing the characters. Hotch is my favorite and I am really missing him lately. I can't believe that there was a whole episode without him, that is crazy! I miss the interaction between Hotch and Rossi. Rossi is so much like a father. I hope the writers bring those 2 closer together.
Other than that, I liked the idea of the case but Seaver is too unbelievable and should never deliver a profile. Too much Morgan and Garcia this year. Nice to see Reid but not sure about his storyline.
Agreed with all the people who mention the writers need to bring Hotch at the forefront. Thomas Gibson talent is wasted at the moment. The best season always had great Hotch episodes.
Good idea, I will watch an old CM episode on Wednesday night at 10:00pm. No way will I watch the spin off!
Agreed Michelle, the writers should have more interaction between Hotch and Rossi. Those are great characters and I don't understand why this season they had nothing to do. How can CM leave two great actors like Thomas Gibson and Joe Mantegna in the background? Come on CM writers, stop trying to make us accept an unbelieveable character like Seaver ( No offense to Rachel Nichols who is a good actress). CM writers, you have a great cast and very strong actors in Gibson and Mantegna why not use them?
CM FANATICS: Do you want our old CM back? Then let's all make a statement and say loudly and clearly:
We do NOT support the spin-off (no offense, Forest...)
We want the CM we all love back ASAP and we will be watching re-runs on ION whenever "Suspect Behavior" airs...
Ed, please call Andrew and the others back and get back to QUALITY. You were doing such a great job - please do not give up on what's tried and true!
Please everyone, let's watch ION and do this TOGETHER!
Great idea! No imitation CM in MY house!
That is, if ION is airing Criminal Minds reruns on Wednesdays. It also airs Ghost Whisperer and Without a Trace reruns too. Still, it's a great idea--boycott the spin-off by watching the original elsewhere! That'll impact the ratings.
I'll watch paint dry instead of watching the spin-off!
Nothing against Forrest or the other actors in the spin-off, it is just that CM has lost so much that we need back to make it great again. It is too bad that Tassler felt the need to take from CM to lift the spin-off off the ground. She didn't have to do that, CM didn't have to be compromised. Also, no offense to the actress who plays Seaver, it is not about her, it is about the Seaver character and its ill fit for the show.
Here in San Diego, ION airs CM at 10PM AFTER Without a Trace at 9. Let's hope they stick to that schedule.
Even if they don't we're NOT watching the spin-off. Period.
No matter what is airing at the time the spinoff is, I am not watching the spinoff! Sorry Forrest and the rest of the spin-off crew. CM was hit pretty hard and pretty deep for the spinoff; CM lost writers, lost AJ Cook, may lose Paget Brewster, and now has the character of Ashley Seaver which is a no go.
Earlier, we were all talking about the ratings and how American Idol is now competing with Criminal Minds, resulting in lower ratings for the latter show. Here's what I'm worried about--for the next few weeks, Criminal Minds will face major competition with AI, and its ratings could drop over that period of time. By the time American Idol ends, CM's ratings might get so low that it would never be able to recover for the rest of the season, even if it does get better. By that point, the low ratings might convince CBS to cancel CM (provided if the spin-off bombs). What's next, shifting it around in the schedule?
Anonymous- good points..
If CM starts to shift in the schedule, it is all she wrote (depending on what night and time it is moved to). Shifting in the schedule is almost always a precursor to cancellation city.
I also will not be watching the spinoff!
Ok. I only have one question! sorry if it was addressed in one of the 400+ comments before mine, I tried to read through as many as I could but...
HOW DID REID GET OUT OF THE HOUSE WITHOUT BEING SEEN? The whole team was right downstairs by the stairwell and then in the soup kitchen. Prentiss didn't see anyone and she was out front... 10 virtual points to anyone who has a valid answer.. ;)
oh p.s. esp. after the tv guide article that came out today, I too am a vote for NOT watching the spinoff. (which to me is a VOTE for the mothership and the CM cast). ION and old epis for me!
I don't get ION up here but, I don't care, I'll watch the weather channel if I have to, even it's better that the spin-off.
Hi Kell, there are stairs outside. You can see the shadow of the railing when Rossi and Morgan are looking out the window.
I thought the episode was okay but I'm not sure if I felt this way because I was pretty much blown away by Matthew's acting. I really think that his performance was quite powerful. I felt like his acting made the episode so maybe I overlooked the writing.
This wasn’t the worst episode of CM of this season for me. Seaver's questions and her participation during the presentation of the profile is the only thing that bothered me. Oh…but wait, does feeling that way mean I’m still mad because AJ was let go? Please! I just can't buy into this character being on this team.
It's beginning to appear that TPTB are going to shove this character down our throat whether we like it or not. Perhaps I’m over thinking here but I can’t help but wonder if various individuals who are/were involved in the creation of Seaver would just as soon wreck this show than admit anyone has made a mistake.
Pgunn, I don't think you are overthinking. It has happened on other shows before (shows that have eventually crashed and burned). TPTB create a character and/or a storyline that is completely off and instead of admitting they made a mistake, they press on with the horrible character and/or storyline.
This is done partly because they don't want to admit that they made a mistake, the other part of it has to do with the fact that they believe that they can "train" viewers to accept whatever it is they throw at them. If they just keep on shoving the character and/or storyline down the viewers throats, they believe, then eventually they will have the viewer where they want them. NOT!
Things aren't like they were before, now there are 50 billion channels, each providing a plethora of shows one can watch. There is Netflix, Hulu, You Tube, you name it. Network television isn't the only game in town anymore.
The grand majority of the people who watch CM are not mindless robots that CBS/ABC/CM can train to buy the character of Seaver. Nor is CM some reality show that calls for virtually no thinking or engagement on the part of the viewer. Yet, that is exactly what they are turning this show into. No CM fan who has blood running through their veins will ever buy the character of Seaver. It is an utterly unbelievable character, and in their insistence to continue shoving this character in the viewers faces, they will succeed in not only alienating the core base of their audience but also would have dumbed down the show so significantly that it would eventually collaspe on itself.
Sharon: Sadly, I think you could be right.
For TPTB to be reading all of our comments and still be putting the Seaver character back in later after her "3 epi arc" this season kinda clinches it, doesn't it?
Unless, of course, she turns into the unsub, which we could only hope for...kind of a Dexter move, ya know? WA-A-AY out there....
Hmmm...maybe we could be on to something here. Do you think it's too late to make such a thing happen???!!!:):):)
Have a good day, everyone!
Sharon,
Yu are so right!! This is what network TV has been doing for a while now and it is insulting. Yet, as options for viewers increase, this tactic is not panning out like it used to for them. More than ever before, people can just switch off the TV, or head over to another network, cable TV or the internet. People are no longer strapped to network TV.
gubegirl- The actress who plays Seaver was signed on as a series regular before her 3 episode arc aired, confirming for a lot of people that the line CBS was pushing that this character was only going to be on for 3 episodes was another one of their lies. They did say they wanted to cast a female character, they just swore up and down at first that it wasn't this character. Well, the cat came out of the bag once she was signed prior to the airing of all of her 3 arc episode's.
I think the Seaver unsub idea is brilliant, and no, I am not just saying that because I do not want the character to return for season 7. I actually think it would be a great twist for the show, sort of like "Profiler, Profiled," but in a different way. It would be an awesome lead up to the team figuring out that Seaver is the unsub. Thomas Gibson, I could only imagine what type of performance he would give, plus the dynamic between him and Rossi being that Rossi, I think, is the person who's idea it was to get Seaver. Whoo, then Strauss, she would be on fire! She has never cared for Hotch and we kind of caught a glimpse at the strain between Rossi and Strauss in the episode before Corazon. Plus, the team woud feel torn up not only because they had an unsub in their mist, but because of the inevitable tension (I'm assuming) between Hotch and Rossi.
Left in the hands of a strong writer, that could make an outstanding episode or two.
The show would be amazing if they made Seaver an unsub. It would also justify her presence. She's supposed to come back in ep. 15 so I'm wondering how they will bring her back. I'm assuming she is done her training through the BAU in the last episode and will not return for the next 2 episodes - thank god. What will be the reason to bring her back?
MAybe we should all enjoy the next 2 episodes without her.
I am for sure going to enjoy the 2 episodes without her!
2 big thumbs up for the Seaver as unsub storyline! It would be fantastic to see how the team would deal with that type of situation. Specifically, Hotch as the team's leader.
Also, sign me up as another person who will not be watching the spinoff.
I think the Seaver unsub story would not only be good for the team as a whole and Hotch specifically as the team leader, but I think for Prentiss too. I am remembering in the 25 to life episode when Prentiss said that she would mentor Seaver (guess the mentoring is over because now unrealistically Seaver is participating in giving the profile with the team, ack!) and she is the one who e-mailed Hotch about her mentoring Seaver. I recall the scene when Seaver brought Prentiss coffee and I think Seaver thanked Prentiss for having her back and Prentiss said she hopes Seaver would have her back. What a let down that would be for Prentiss on a personal level, plus, a great way to get some more of the Prentiss character on screen.
I know that Paget's appearance on the show has been reduced (thanks CBS for messing with Paget, ack!) but whatever screen time she has, I think it would be good to use in that type of storyline. Plus, I am hoping that Paget decides to stay on the show.
Margaret, I think it would also be a way to get back to that family feel as it would, in different ways, deal with how the 3 team members who were not directly, in one way or another, involved with Seaver being there deal with the 3 who were. Maybe there would be tension there like between Morgan and JJ in Revelations when JJ felt that Morgan was blaming her for going along with being separated from Reid to look for Tobias; or perhaps it would just be Morgan, Reid, and Garcia banding together to reassure them that it wasn't their fault and to show them that no matter what they will have their back.
If it were done, I think there are many different ways the family edge could be weaved in. It really would make a good storyline.
It could also maybe bring up some possible resentment that Strauss has towards Prentiss for not going along with her plan to use her to spy on the team.
Wow, I am already imagining this episode in my head, :) If only it could be an upcoming episode, it would be so great!
I enjoyed this episode but have mixed feelings about the Prentiss centric one coming up. That's only because she is one of my favorite characters and I feel the storyline might be the beginning of her demise.
I really feel the show wont survive another cast change,and season seven might be it's last. I hope CBS convinces her stay. This was a perfect cast. Each character brought something unique and real to the table. I don't believe CBS realized what it had.
I wont be watching the spin off. I am simply too pissed off.
I would love to see Seaver as more as an 'all about Eve" type. character
Anonymous said:
"I enjoyed this episode but have mixed feelings about the Prentiss centric one coming up. That's only because she is one of my favorite characters and I feel the storyline might be the beginning of her demise.
I really feel the show wont survive another cast change,and season seven might be it's last. I hope CBS convinces her stay. This was a perfect cast. Each character brought something unique and real to the table. I don't believe CBS realized what it had.
I wont be watching the spin off. I am simply too pissed off."
1000% agree with you!
I thought that the episode was good. Matthew Gray Gubler's acting was wonderful as usual. I really can't stand the Seaver character and wish that they would get JJ back and keep Prentiss. I also feel that the writing in the earlier years was probably quite a bit better. Why doesn't the network listen to the fans? Obviously they think that they know what we want to watch better than we do!
I thought the episode as a whole was great.
I really enjoyed the plot and Julio's character.
The interrogation scene didn't bother me. Julio believed he was being possessed by 'Ellegua', his Saint, but no one said he really was.
Reid just said that Julio wasn't faking it, that he wholeheartedly believed he was being possessed (he didn't say he, himself, believed it).
It reminds me of the open ending of 'Cold Comfort' with the psychic, or with Prentiss in 'Demonology'.
Now, I don't understand why Reid went after the professor(unsub) on his own.
In '3rd Life', when Reid went on his own after the unsub he called Hotch first to explain where the unsub was. Since Reid was closer to him than the rest of the team (and since time was running out for the unsub's captive) Hotch told him to go there first and to 'be careful'. That scene was okay for me, it was a calculated risk.
But that scene in 'Corazon' didn't make sense. Reid didn't even try to contact his team, which is very out of character for him.
I really believed in that instant, (during that scene when Reid runs off on his own) that his brain was damaged and his judgment impaired.
Maybe that was the point of the scene, to make us understand that Reid wasn't thinking clearly at that point.
About the possibility of "Seaver as an unsub"...I admit that the idea is interesting and even tempting. But I don't think that's what they have planed for her.
We know she'll be a regular at least for the rest of the season.
But if she turned out to be an unsub, that could be a great cliffhanger.
About Reid's health problems it could potentially be a great storyline, but we need to see where this is going first.
Maybe the writers are trying to scare us about a possible mental issue but will surprise us in the end. Who knows, maybe Reid's doctor isn't competent and we'll find out there really is something physically wrong with Reid.
That's something I would love to see.
I would be curious to see the team reacting if they learned that Reid already went to the hospital to get checked without telling them anything.
Forgot to add : that scene where Julio gives Reid his bracelet...
he said it would protect him, but from what ? A mental issue, a physical problem ?
Julio also said Reid had 'bad eggun' on top of his head and needed cleaning (or cleansing ? not sure).
No matter what, I suppose we'll see Reid 'fight' in some way.
Being a Reid fan the idea, for me, is appealing.
But I hope he'll fight a physical condition. What could he do against a mental or psychological issue ? Maybe take some rest and talk, but I would prefer to see a mentally strong Reid fighting a physical illness.
Seaver as unsub, OMG, love it!!! That would be an awesome cliffhanger or episode arc.
All of the things that can be worked into that type of story would be fantastic!!!
Sharon, your right on the money love.
I used to love this show because it was based on a certain reality and real BAU profilers were consulted. Season 6, after episode 2, should be put in the same category as The Simpsons because of its absurdity. We hardly see Reid anymore. Season 5, I thought it was because of his injury but I see now that it's not. Just watching reruns of the first 4 seasons confirms this. There is finally a Reid episode and it makes no sense at all. VooDoo!!! Come on! Headaches for no reason at all and, none given... When Reid asked Morgan to interview the suspect, this was soooo out of character for him. I won't even talk about Seaver - a Barbie doll is always good for a show right? JJ had too much brains and so does Prentiss that why she has to go too. I keep hoping that with every episode, this show will get back to the way it was, considering the mainly negative commentaries CBS gets but I guess all the attention is on the spinoff... which I hope will fail miserably. CSI and NCIS didn't have to butcher their original shows to have successful spinoffs. I work for a television network and find that the higher you are in the hierarchy, the lower your IQ is. Guess it's the same in every network.
Carol Johnson, regrettably I must agree with all of your points. To your first point, this show did have a great way of fusing both fiction and reality, but now, it has just careened into the absurd. To your second point, it is rather disappointing that the first time we see Reid in the spotlight after such a long time that it is in the backdrop of voodoo. CM character centric episodes from before beautifully dealt with the characters themselves, not a whole bunch of extraneous elements that move away from the character. I am reminded of the episode "Elephant's Memory," this is a wonderful example of how the character (in that episode Reid) was positioned in a backdrop that kept the viewer fully engaged on the character, not the guest characters or the backdrop. Revelations, another Reid centric episode, is another great example of how the guest character, the case, did not overshadow the story that was being told about that character.
To your third point, it is a travesty that CBS did not appreciate the wonderful female characters they had in JJ and Prentiss. Two strong, intelligent and experienced women. Now, we get a female character who is not up to snuff with these female characters, let alone any of the male characters. To your fourth point, I too keep coming back hoping that there will be a return to the quality that CM once had an abundance of and lately every week I am disappointed. Finally, you made an excellent point regarding the fact that CSI was not compromised in order to develop NCSI. I suspect that was the case because they held the writers and actors in CSI to a higher esteem than the writers and actors in CM, which is a mistake and a shame, a terrible shame.
Everybody has been talking about a story plot to make Seaver into an Unsub. However, I will be the first one to disagree with the plan. I find it just as ridiculous as Seaver herself--come on, from cadet to agent to profiler and then unsub? Too out of my league of logic if you ask me.
I think you are all creating this so you can "kill" off Seaver. Depending on how things go, maybe she'll leave after this season, I don't know.
First of all, no matter how much they try to paint her in that light, Seaver is not a profiler. Seaver is a glorified cadet, who I suspect will have graduated from the academy upon her return to the show in episode 15, something that still would not qualify her to be a profiler. At any rate, if I am correct, the idea to have her become an unsub may be tied to her childhood growing up with a serial killer (got to use that unique insight somehow since it was useless in "What Happens at Home), and maybe the stress of not having been able to deal with what she's been exposed to while traveling around being a faux-profiler with the rest of the team.
In season 2, I think, Elle cornered an unsub on her own and shot him in cold blood which was related to the trauma she experienced being shot by an unsub herself. So, someone on the team becoming a murderer is not something out of the norm for the show. However, you may be right that some are proposing the idea so that Seaver will be gone from the show. Hopefully, she will be gone from the show regardless of whether or not she becomes an unsub.
Carol Johnson couldn't agree with you more.
I actually disagree with Carol Johnson about this episode I thought it was good. I don't think that it was out of character for Reid to ask to interrogate the suspect. Even in Comprimising positions he asked Hotch if he could talked to the wife because he was the only guy who wasn't an alpha male and beleived that he could get through to her. In this instance, he asked to speak to the suspect because of what he said. Reid is a lot more confident from season 1 and I think we have seen a gradual change. His interrogation technique is totally different from Morgan's. Reid is a lot less aggressive but this seems to work for some suspects as it did in this instance.
The voodoo stuff did not bother me because I felt like there was an explanation for everything in the case. The only people who believed in the voodoo/supernatural stuff were the practicers in the episode. I don't think anyone in the BAU beleived it. In the end, there was nothing ritualistic about the killings, it was just set up to look that way by the unsub.
Reid's headaches were not explained in this episode but that did not bother me. It means that we will gradually learn about it over time. I don't think that there is anything voodoo related about the headaches. I think that Julio is involved in the practice of healing people spiritually - something that Julio believes is possible but not universally accepted. There are many people in the world who practice this as there are many people who do not believe in it. I guess Julio deals with so many people with some sort of physical, emotional and mental ailments that he was able to pick up on Reid's headaches. Ofcourse Julio who practices in rituals believes he has some sort of psychic connection with Reid. This is just what he believes and I don't think is supposed to be accepted as fact. Part of the beauty of this episode is how you interpret it. I think it has a lot to do with what you believe. Reid is vulnerable at the moment so it will be interesting to see if he'll believe in any of it.
I guess not everyone enjoys an episode with supernatural elements. What I think is important to remember is that there was nothing supernatural about the case - it was just a guy killing to promote a book and seek attention from his father. And Reid's headaches, it seems like it's mostly a mental or emotional breakdown. It could also be something physical that the doctor didn't pick up on. It wasn't something that was explained in this episode and will be explored in future episodes. It's holding my interest and I can't wait to find out. I was also rather impressed by Matthew Gray Gubler's performance and like many was not impressed by Seaver's presence.
Anonymous, I think the point that maybe Carol Johnson was trying to push forward (please correct me if I am wrong Carol Johnson) is the one that Nadia spoke about in her response to Carol Johnson. That is, that unlike the Reid centric episodes from before where the conversation would be about the character himself, not rituals or voodoo or whatever, this episode was so written heavily around that it is almost like that became integral to Reid's story. But it isn't, what was supposed to be integral (but got lost with all of the voodoo elements) is what is happening with Reid. The psychological deteroriation that may be beginning after having been in that job for so long, coupled with the underlying fear (a fear that has always been with him)of becoming mentally ill like his mother.
The episodes that Nadia mentioned (wonderful episodes by the way) brought out the situation, the angst, that was going on with Reid without the backdrop being such a heavy presence. They wonderfully focused on the character.
I'd also like to say that I too am not watching the spinoff. I am beyond upset at what has happened to CM as of late because of a spinoff that hasn't even aired yet, but that is quite obvious that the network wants to push ahead of CM. Maybe that is the case because the cast, specifically Forrest Whittaker, is something that the network has invested heavily in and thus wants to ensure will succeed at any cost, even the stripping of the original. But I think sdwally said it best in a comment posted earlier in this thread, CBS needs to start treating the actors on CM with respect, treat them the way you would actors from CSI or NSCI. They (along with the writers you fired) have build up this "product" for you through a lot of work and dedication and what do they and we get in return:
1. The firing of the show's strongest writers at the end of season 4- which is painfully evident in the episodes now
2. Firing of AJ Cook for no apparent reason other than your obessession with making the spinoff a success at the expense of the original CM
3. Counting the contribution of Paget Brewster as something that can be reduced and eventually eliminated from the show
4. The introduction of a woefully sub par character, Ashley Seaver, who because of the nature of her character (cadet with no experience comparable to even be considered for a spot on the BAU) has knocked the integrity of a show that has always been about showing us the best of the best at the BAU. Now, it is about desperately trying to convince viewers that this character has any credence to be there, worst yet, will now produce scripts around this ridiculous notion.
Gloria said:
"I'd also like to say that I too am not watching the spinoff. I am beyond upset at what has happened to CM as of late because of a spinoff that hasn't even aired yet, but that is quite obvious that the network wants to push ahead of CM. Maybe that is the case because the cast, specifically Forrest Whittaker, is something that the network has invested heavily in and thus wants to ensure will succeed at any cost, even the stripping of the original. But I think sdwally said it best in a comment posted earlier in this thread, CBS needs to start treating the actors on CM with respect, treat them the way you would actors from CSI or NSCI. They (along with the writers you fired) have build up this "product" for you through a lot of work and dedication and what do they and we get in return:
1. The firing of the show's strongest writers at the end of season 4- which is painfully evident in the episodes now
2. Firing of AJ Cook for no apparent reason other than your obessession with making the spinoff a success at the expense of the original CM
3. Counting the contribution of Paget Brewster as something that can be reduced and eventually eliminated from the show
4. The introduction of a woefully sub par character, Ashley Seaver, who because of the nature of her character (cadet with no experience comparable to even be considered for a spot on the BAU) has knocked the integrity of a show that has always been about showing us the best of the best at the BAU. Now, it is about desperately trying to convince viewers that this character has any credence to be there, worst yet, will now produce scripts around this ridiculous notion."
Thank you Gloria for listing out what CBS has done to completely wreck Criminal Minds.
CBS hasn't only toyed around with the writers and actors in the show, but they have also toyed around with the loyal viewers of Criminal Minds by sacrificing the once great work that the show produced to what it is producing now. Your lack of respect for the viewers is obvious in your act of firing the show's strongest writers, firing AJ Cook and basically pushing Paget out of the door. To add insult to injure, you slip in a new character that is so completely outside of the sphere of believability for what CM is built on, it appears to me that you believe that the Criminal Minds viewer does not have the mental capacity to process how wrong this new character is for the show. I would have preferred that no new character had been added to the show rather than adding this Seaver character.
If things do not improve on the show, I will not stick around to view another season of Criminal Minds. Needless to say, I will not be watching the spin-off.
Just saw a new promo for the upcoming CM episode, and based on the promo, it looks good. One major thing that will make this episode good for me is that the Seaver character will not be in it!!
From the promo, stuff was flowing between the team, no useless and obvious banter like there is when Seaver is on the scene; and certainly no off the wall scenes like a cadet giving part of the profile to the police with the team.
Please do not make us suffer any longer with this Seaver character beyond season 6. However you chose to write her out is okay. You want to make her an unsub, fine, you want to write that she discovered that the BAU is not for her, fine, heck, wiping her off the map like she never existed would be fine too. Just work on tigthening the writing and please do whatever you can to convince Paget to stay so that CM can get back to what it has always been, please!
*If Paget does not stay, which I hope she does, then please cut Seaver loose and get a character that doesn't require one to block out and ignore because they are so bad for the show, please!
Bottom line, this Seaver character is beyond anything that any rational human being can believe is true, even for fiction, especially for CM and the BAU. This character is simply not salvageable. The quicker the show can cut ties with this character the better and then maybe things can get back on track with repairing the show.
I enjoyed this episode. I thought MGG did a great job. This and Reflection of Desire are the only 2this season that I would really like watching again. I think the voodoo aspect was good but lost me in a couple of places because of too much information. There are a few things however that I didnt like. First and foremost is the Seavers character. She went from being a cadet to an active contributing profiler in a matter of weeks. Much too unbelievable especially how the BAU has always been held as this elite unit of the FBI which "spoils" the integrity of the whole show. CM prided itself in taking the most incredible scenarios and wrote them in a way that after watching it you would go...yea that could really happen! With Seavers I just shake my head and say that wouldnt have happened.
and 2nd, the fact that Reid went off by himself, based on his past, is also unbelievable. I have read others say the headaches may have caused him to do something irrational but I didnt notice anything else that he said or did to be so. Quite the contrary, he was able to clearly give his opinions and spout off facts as usualeven with his headaches. I wish the writers would have taken into account his past when he went off by himself and what happened and figured out a different way for that scene to be played out.
Sign me up a billion times over as someone who is not going to watch the spinoff! CM has been completely eviscerated because of the spinoff and it is not only an insult to the former CM writers that were fired, the actors, and the crew, but to the loyal fans of CM.
As a result of the spinoff, we have been getting weak writing, AJ Cook's character is gone, Paget is basically out of CM, and then the icing on the cake, the mind-numbingly painful Ashley Seaver character who manages to do nothing but make people either ignore her presence or cringe.
I love CM and want it to get restored to what it once was and that is a high quality show. While I didn't care for the Corazon episode as a whole, there were parts of it that I enjoyed. Unfortunately, the one thing that will virtually guarantee that I never, ever watch that episode again is the inane scene where Seaver is giving the profile with the team as if she has any credentials to back up doing so. To say I became livid during that scene is an understatement, not only because of the inane nature of the scene, but because I had come to believe that CM was above introducing characters and storylines that required people to suspend their common sense. CM has always been good in blending a mix of both fiction and reality into its episodes. The Seaver character is not a blend of fiction or reality, it is more like the Twilight Zone meets X-Files in what it would require the viewer to tap into in order to believe and accept this characters presence on the show.
I guess what I am getting at is that I am upset that the show has shown such little credit to the viewers that have been with CM all of the way.
It seems fans of CM are very polarized on this episode. I thought it was the best of this season so far since it engaged me and held my interest. Although I agree that the writing is still far short of what it was in earlier seasons, I think it is at least, going in the right direction. Really, I just wish they would bring the old writers back, but I give this new writer credit for their effort.
I notice quite a few posters really disliked the storyline and found it unrealistic, but I had no problem with it and found it intereting. After all, ritualistic religions are prevalent in quite a few parts of the world and pockets exist in the US, so I don't find the plot at all unreasonable or far fetched. I liked that there was an emphasis on substantive profiling and the overall vibe of the episode reminded me of earlier seasons, with more banter and team interaction than we have seen so far this season.
I was glad to finally see a Reid centric episode, as he has been under utilized for quite a while. MGG did an outstanding job and he is an exceptionally talented actor. I do think the writer could have developed the vision/halluciantion scenes more effectively, because they were too repetitious and didn't really advance the storyline. And, I guess the jury is still out as to what Reid's illness is. At times, his visions appeared to be clairvoyant, but others seemed to be a type of fixation on photos related to the case itself. He could just be stressing out due to the demands of the job or simply suffering from migraines or some other type of medical problem. It did not appear to me to be schizophrenia. I think whatever his illness turns out to be, it could be an interesting story arc to explore if the writers handle it properly and resolve it in a believable fashion.
I agree with most everyone else here that Seaver's character is just not believable and I think she adds nothing to the team. For me, it has nothing to do with the loss of JJ, it is just that her character makes no sense and of course, that is the fault of the writers who create her and no reflection on the actress herself.
I guess saying that Corazon is the best episode of the season isn't really saying much considering what this season has produced thus far. For me, and I think some other people, the supernatural/spiritual spin to the episode overtook the story of Reid in that it had such a powerful presence that at times it seemed to take over instead of Reid's story; it was more prominent than Reid's story at times. I think the storyline is something that can be worked out though and I am hoping that it is developed in a believable way, a way that will further showcase Matthew's acting talent.
I did like that there was more profiling going on in this episode, however, I still think that the team "family" dynamic was missing. An "Are you alright kid" and some worried looks from Hotch and Rossi don't constitute the level of team connectedness that we have seen in earlier seasons, but that is another thing that I am hoping will be worked on as this story moves along. Also, would love to see more of Hotch as a leader. Thomas Gibson is a great actor whose skills have not been fully displayed thus far this season. It would be a big mistake to keep under- utilizing the Hotch character. As for Garcia, I hope that you will reconsider having her be the one to present the cases to the team.
Lately, it seems like Rossi is just there, making bland statements that are not up to the level of where his character is supposed to be at. For instance, last night on ION, I saw the episode Birthright from season 3. This was a wonderful episode that highlighted the skill and experience that Rossi has, hope to see that come back for Rossi on the show. Additionally, I understand that Paget's contract is currently such that she does not appear in every episode/scene, but it is my hope that a little more attention gets paid to the Prentiss character as it may be her last season on the show. I'm hoping that will be the case as it seems that her episode arc is coming up. Yet, it is my hope that the Prentiss character not be used as others have pointed out as mechanism for people to buy into the Seaver character.
I don't know what to say about the Seaver character that hasn't already been said. I guess I will start by stating that my feelings toward the Seaver character are not related to AJ's firing from the show. It seems like that point has to be said repeatedly because despite evidence to the contrary, some people will always go straight to people not liking Seaver because of JJ which is frustrating. Anyway, the Seaver character is one that is completely unrealistic and does truly expect that the viewer suspend common sense, along with everything they know about the show, to believe. Her character adds nothing but a lack of credibility to the integrity of what the show is built upon and it is my sincere hope that this character exit the show as soon as possible. To keep this character on would only decrease the level of respect fans have for a show that has always aimed straight with their series regulars.
They are showing "Elephant's Memory" on ION right now. God, that is the way to do a Reid-centric episode! Perfect blend of Reid's story, wonderful team interaction, and no nonsensical characters like Seaver.
OMG Tia, Elephant's Memory is one of my favorite CM episodes!!!!! Written by none other than Andrew Wilder himself- wonderful Reid/Morgan and Hotch/Reid moments in that episode. The whole team was great in that episode. No Seaver- like characters in sight too, a big plus!!!!
I miss those kinds of CM episodes.
Jacqueline, I'm right there with you, girl! I think that both Hotch and Rossi's characters have been severely underutilized this season, to the detriment of the show. It was good to see Reid, but I hope that there is a lot more Hotch in the back half in the season. Rossi too.
The episode left me a little empty, mainly b/c of the lack of interaction between the characters. Hope this improves, but I'm not holding my breath.
Hotch-Rossi please!
Lisa, I am not holding my breath either. Nowadays, it seems like they are just trying to go more action-oriented, unsub-oriented, instead of character development. Now, with the addition of Seaver, matters are only going to be made worse because they are going to have to write the characters around that non-credible character which is going to diminsh each team member.
Tia, Renee:
As soon as you say "Elephant's Memory", my mind goes to that
oh-so poignant scene with Reid telling about his HS experience of being bullied to Morgan. OMG, that was the best ever! I can picture MGG with tears welling in his eyes and his voice trembling and the courage it took for him to share that story with Morgan, who was so empathetic and said just the right things to Reid when he was feeling so very vulnerable, just like a big brother might.
THAT is the CM I miss; where did it go? Where did that family dynamic go? They should be getting closer, be more in tune with each other not moving further away like in Corazon, demonstrated by having Reid's headaches and general malaise go unnoticed and him to go off on his own without his vest...
Damn, I really miss the old CM and I so want it back.
What can we do to help get it back on track? It is my one addiction and I am reluctant to give it up...:)
Gubegirl, I don't know. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I have a sick feeling that Prentiss is going to be killed off. Once Prentiss is killed off, I think it is pretty much over for any chance to get the old CM quality back because they are really going to try and push this whole new vibe to the show. Prentiss is one of the last connections to the old CM. Had they cast a strong female instead of Seaver, I would say that there maybe was a chance, but they didn't, so I fear they are not going to get rid of Seaver and keep pushing that character until no tomorrow, trying to wipe Prentiss from our memory banks. Trying to wipe everything that CM stood for that made it so good, that made the Reid and Morgan moments something we looked forward to and expected, something we thought would grow, not diminish.
In a way, even if Prentiss isn't killed off, like let's say they write that she left for overseas, the fact is the only female there will be Seaver with the rest of the guys on the field. Oh hell no, I am not down to watch that kind of CM. Just thinking about that really makes me shake because it is going to have to require some bad writing gymnastics to get that going (they have already started with ridiculously having Seaver giving the profile), and once it starts, they will just keep going down that road.
I hope to God that I am wrong, but I really do feel like this is going to happen. I just can't stick around after it does.
Oh God Renee, you just truly laid it out there. I don't know if anybody over at CBS or Criminal Minds really reads this, and if they do I doubt that they will care, but if Prentiss leaves and Seaver stays I am out. You here me, I am out! Like Renee, I just cannot fathom watching that type of Criminal Minds with someone like Seaver as permanently part of the female cast.
I can understand if Paget decides to go, it is her decision, but leaving Seaver there. NO, NO, NO! Criminal Minds will be so degraded that I couldn't stand it. I can't watch my show go further down like that. It has already lost so much in the recent past and then that. If that happens, I will just have to stick to my DVD's of past seasons and ion televison and A&E.
Elephant's Memory, that is a true Reid and Morgan momemnt, not the "Are you alright kid?" crumb they tried to pass off as a Reid and Morgan moment in Corazon. Hotch and Reid in Elephant's Memory was great too.
I'll support Paget in whatever she decides to do, but if CM thinks that they are going to pull a "Yeah, the Prentiss character is no longer here, but we got Seaver for you" bit, they can wipe me off the viewer list.
I have given CM the benefit of the doubt, chance upon chance, week after week. But if they think they can try and pass off that pathetic Seaver character as a reasonable alternative to Prentiss being gone, that is where my benefit of the doubt and my chances stop.
Once Prentiss is gone, and if Seaver is still there, she will be pushed to the forefront. I am not sticking around to see CM head in that direction. It would hurt my sensibilities to have to sit week after week seeing Seaver who has not one shred of anything near to anything that would make her fit to be on the BAU be written in a way that tries to makes her seem like she does. I want to have the image of the show as it once was, a show that had credibility and respect, not one that tried to pull a fast one with a character that everyone knows is not good enough for CM. A character that defies logic. No, I want to remember the CM that had pride and integrity in what it produced for the actors and the audience.
I didn't care for the episode either. I think Matthew Gray Gubler did a good job with what he had to work with, I especially liked the last scene with Reid and the doctor talking over the results of his MRI. Matthew was especially great in that scene.
I think that the voodoo, supernatural angle was a bit too much and it kind of overshadowed Reid's storyline. Other Reid-centric episodes have done a good job on focusing on the character of Reid, not on everything else going on around him. Also, the lack of concern on part of the team for Reid was quite absymal. Morgan saying "Are you alright Kid," then moving on is not good. Neither was Hotch and Rossi's look of concern, but no follow through. The Elephant's Memory episode that the commenters above me spoke about is a great example of a true Reid/Morgan, Hotch/Reid connection. Maybe they will build on this in later episodes, but I have little hope that they will.
The scene with Ashley Seaver giving part of the profile with the team at the police department was insulting! For God sakes, this character is still in remedial training and in the academy, yet, they have her up there like she is one of the pro's. Oh, and newsflash, having graduated from the academy still wouldn't qualify her to be on the team. Criminal Minds Fan said that CBS and Ed Bernero read this. Well, okay, then I just want to ask, who do you think you are fooling with this Seaver character? Have you yourselves lost so much care and respect for the show and its viewers that you would produce this kind of charactr and expect us to fall for it? We haven't forgotten that everyone on the team came in with years of experience, except for Reid who was recruited by Gideon because he is a genius. Give me a break!!!!! God, do you think we are that stupid???????
How insulting to the other characters, the show as a whole, and the viewers. I can only hope and pray to God that this character doesn't return for season 7, she is a horrible fit for the show and to ask viewers to believe the unbelievable, that this cadet is now up to par with the rest of the team is just ridiculous! I really hate that the writers are trying to shove this character down our throats. This show needs to get its act together. The writing has been slipping lately and this Seaver character certainly doesn't help matters.
Yet, I have a feeling that all of our appeals are falling on deaf ears. Whether it is hubris, obstinance, or just sheer disregard for the audience, I don't think things will get better, I think they will get worse. Then, just like every other show that has been drug down into the ground, different people will give differnt lame excuses for the show's demise. Meanwhile, all along, it would have been the very same people peddling the lame excuses who are the ones to blame for the show bursting into flames.
Lisa, I felt that empty feeling too from this episode. We definitely need to see more Hotch and Rossi in action, and count me as one of the people that will depart from the show if after Prentiss leaving the show keeps Seaver on as a character.
You know what is really insulting? That after everything Paget had to go through with CBS, she comes back for her last season and is given NOTHING to do, except shadow Morgan and if that is not enough, she is supposed to advocate for the Seaver character? So, not only she is being forced out, she now has to make room and make easier for the new girl to fit in?
Insulting.
Insulting trade two amazing actresses for one unfit, unbelievable character.
And even more insulting to expect the audience to accept that.
Alana.. SO TRUE!!!! You need to post this comment on the other thread as well!
Alana, I couldn't resist. I cut and paste your comment onto the new thread.
Okay, I realize I may be in the minority, but, from the beginning, I have actively tried to like Ashley Seaver.
I actually didn't mind "What Happens At Home", though I was surprised that Hotch allowed her to continue her remediation with the team in "25 to Life" given how unhappy he was with her at the end of that first episode. Nonetheless, I interpreted his permission as a sign of how distracted he is with things in his own home life. However, even I could not reconcile myself with the scene in "Corazon" of our remediated cadet giving the profile to the police alongside the rest of the team. Please Ed & company, I am trying to give this girl the benefit of every doubt, but I have to agree with all of those who have pointed out how completely unbelievable this scenario seems.
And how ARE they going to bring Seaver back for the rest of the season or as a possible permanent member? Since a quick trip to the FBI training website verifies that the BAU/BSU do take on full-time UNPAID interns, I considered that they might go down that road, but these positions look like they're meant for college students who are trying to decide whether or not they want to join the FBI (pre-Quantico). I could be wrong; I might suspend my disbelief enough to buy it, but then how would Ashley pay her bills?
Of course, after the internship or Quantico training, the site gives me the impression that she would have to go work in another department for a minimum of two or three years before she could even apply to be a part of the Behavioral Science department. Yes, Reid went straight from Quantico into the BAU, but he was a huge exception to every rule (as was pointed out when Ashley was introduced to the team) because he's a genius with a phenomenal memory. Honestly, I can't see how they can keep her on as a permanent member of the team.
Auntie V
...cont.
As for what's ailing Reid, yes, he needs more testing. Not all headache problems can be seen on an MRI or CAT scan. I don't believe the medical profession has an understanding of what causes many migraines. (My sister has them and they still don't know why.) However, I believe that the writer was telling us through both the Voodoo priest and the Doctor at the end, that it is a mind/body connection issue.
Given the kind of material that the BAU has to deal with on a regular basis, it would be hard for a normal person to cope with the stress. But at least a "regular" person can forget some of the images after awhile - Reid can't. His memory keeps them all available, in perfect clarity, at any given moment. Men and women of lesser memory have been driven to drink and abuse drugs in order to find brief respite. I can't help but think that he's got to be working his NA program hardcore in order to keep from reaching for the Dilaudid. What sweet relief the drug would initially offer from both the memories and the pain of the headaches!
It has long been hinted that Reid has virtually no social life outside of his job. He needs to find some new coping mechanisms:
a hobby or two that has nothing to do with his job, or - I know many fans may not like it - a love interest. He needs some beautiful memories to help balance out some of the terrible images in which he's immersed himself. (Plus, on an earthier note, getting the boy laid on a regular basis could do wonders to help him relax.)
I seem to remember that someone in an earlier post pointed out that we need to pay attention to the title of this episode (Corazon means 'heart' in Spanish for those who may not know), as well as the writer's choice of quotes. Clearly, Reid is being given a message that he needs to pay attention to his heart/feelings, because his answers may not be found in pure, physical science. This is hinted at even by the book that draws Reid's attention in the unsub's office - a first edition of Wittengenstein's Tractatus (a work which, to use Wikipedia's summary, attempted "to identify the relationship between language and reality and to define the limits of science.")
I'm looking forward to seeing how this storyline plays out. Like others, I'm hoping that his problem will help to bring the team back into a more "familial" dynamic.
Auntie V
...last cont., I promise....
As for the spin-off, I'm undecided. The only two reasons to watch are Garcia and Janeane Garofalo (I tend to love Garofalo in almost everything I've seen her in), but the reasons to NOT watch are manifold. It was bad enough that "The Fight" was one of my least favorite episodes (because I felt like someone was trying to shove introductions down my throat the whole time), but the team was perhaps more unbelievable than Seaver's profiling.
The English dude isn't an American citizen. I thought you had to be an American to be in the FBI. Maybe not? Prophet is an ex-con. Now he's a member of the BAU, the most elite of FBI teams? I didn't know they allowed ex-cons to even become special agents. And Beau Garrett is straight out of the
Academy,right? And now she's in a maverick version of the BAU - gee, I guess we know from whence Seaver's potential inclusion originated. Oh, and it's all coming together under a profiler so amazing, that he's being allowed to put this illogical and rule-breaking team together even though we've never heard his name mentioned before this episode. If he was so phenomenal, it might have behooved the writers to mention him in passing a few times before the back-door pilot. Having a few sentences sprinkled into the episodes leading up to "The Fight" about some of his exploits might have actually created some anticipation for the audience to meet Whittaker's character. Instead, it all came across as extremely contrived.
I realize that there are several different models on which to build a spin-off; I guess I'm simply partial to the character-driven kind. And it helps if the spin-off isn't OBVIOUSLY a ploy to make a freaking franchise. NCIS was a spin from Jag, but it's so very different that many people don't remember that's where it started. The CSIs all blur together to me, so I watch NONE of them.
Are there stories that the writers want to tell that they can't tell through Criminal Minds? If the answer is 'no, these Suspect Behavior stories could have just as easily been regular Criminal Minds episodes' then there is no creative point in the second show existing. I have no investment in these SB characters except for Garcia, and I'd like to know how she's carrying on the duties of both technical analyst and partial media liaison for one very busy team and still taking care of another, especially since she actually TRAVELS with the original team from time to time.
I'm sure that TPTB probably won't be reading a post this late and far down the list, but I thought I'd throw in my quarter's worth anyway. As someone said in an earlier post, if we love the show, we have to try to point out what isn't working since it's the only power we have aside from changing the channel.
(your extremely long-winded)
Auntie V
I think the voodoo elements
were a juxtaposition of Othe demons or fear of demons the unsub was trying to invoke and the personal demons that Reid is struggling with.
it didnt bother me.
I am curious about the cause of Reids headaches .
We shall see.
Has CM ever had the "due to violence, viewer discretion is advised" thing before? Hmm. Maybe I just never noticed...
I really enjoyed this episode. I liked the music and I liked how they had Reid tapping his foot nervously with the music in the background and then had the flashes of color that contrasted sharply with the sterile environment Reid was in.
The guy playing Julio Ruiz was excellent. I really liked his voice and the chanting..
I didn't get the sense of "blinding" headaches or even hallucinations..
I couldn't tell if Reid was lying when he said he had not had hallucinations.
I liked that we had some red herrings and some mystery about the unsub. I admit I was so focused on trying to figure out what was going on with Reid that I didn't pay attention to who the unsub might be.
I liked that the team members expressed concern for Reid, even if it was superficial in some regards. I wasn't sure what to make of Morgan in this one. I think it was evident that Hotch sent Morgan with Reid in the hopes that he could find out what was wrong with Reid (or if anything was wrong with Reid) but all we got was a little bit of Morgan asking for facts from Reid (which he hasn't done in a LONG time so it was nice) but there wasn't that same sense of family. I miss when Morgan used to pat Reid on the back or shoulder. Why do they suddenly seem to have a "no touching" policy? The physical affection of past seasons is gone.
Garcia's flirtations with Morgan also seem very one-sided. He is not reciprocating.
I couldn't tell if Morgan just failed to see that something was wrong with Reid or if he just considered the possibility that Reid was just feeling sick and that it would pass. He wasn't defensive or snippy like he'd been when he was on drugs.
My minor nitpicks for the episode were:
1. Seaver giving part of the profile for no explicable reason. She is still a cadet. She should have been sitting and taking notes still. It doesn't make sense for her to be that involved at this point.
2. Reid was still wearing the vest when he reached to open the door to enter the house at the end (but he had taken the vest off in a prior scene).
3. There was still a lack of physical affection and that real sincere family feeling.
4. The MRI shouldn't have been done with a pillow under his head.. They have a sort of head cage for it-- but the we wouldn't have been able to see his face.
My biggest gripe was how NinjaReid suddenly decided to just sneak out and go to the creepy house without telling the team.. There was no reason for it. No explanation was given. He just left.. I don't care how bad his headaches were, that didn't make sense.
I did like that Reid faked the guy out and bonked him on the head. I just wish they had found a legitimate reason for Reid to have been over there alone with him in the first place.
I did find it amusing that the team was wondering where Reid was when fans have been wondering that for a long time. He almost always disappears toward the end lately.
I liked that Hotch let Reid know that he knew Reid was lying about the headache.
I felt so bad for Reid when the doctor suggested it was psychosomatic. Umm.. Did they run more tests that we didn't know about? Just because it doesn't show up in an MRI does not mean there isn't something medically wrong. There are other tests to run. I don't blame Reid for being upset-- even if he seems to have over-reacted.
I really hope it doesn't turn out to be just stress.. I don't want Reid having a "major depressive episode" or whatever they are calling it these days.
This was still probably my favorite episode of the season.. I liked it better than most of season 5 episodes too.
Late but thought I would still post, took my time watching this episode, on summer holidays but given the disappointment of last week and season 6 so far I wasn’t pushing myself to watch this & took my time!!
Overall okay episode, I must admit I didn’t hate it, put it this way certainly a huge improvement from 25 to Life but I can’t say I was sitting at the edge of my seat either, overall story line was okay certainly different and I must admit the whole Reid hallucinations & storyline didn’t really work for me, I expect a lot could have been done with this so seems like a missed opportunity, overly super natural and physic for my liking for CM anyway, would have fit in well in the ‘Medium’ realm.
I agree with some of the comments proceeding, was nice to see the Reid / Morgan pairing and same with Hotch / Prentiss, was good to see Hotch all together after missing him in 25 to Life … no Hotch no CM!!
Sdwally I’m totally with you and agree 100% with your comments, the end was the best part of this episode but like others have said why do we have to sit through nearly an hour for this, gone are the days where this show kept me at the edge of my seat, and counting down to the next new episode.
From all that has happened of late I get the feeling that CM is the poor cousin an doesn’t get the same kind of accolades, rewards and recognition it should for the kind of viewership it has sustained over the years, which makes me doubly sad for the cast who are absolutely amazing (not counting RN, although I have nothing against her, the new character doesn’t work for me!!), I honestly don’t know why CBS had to mess with something that was working but I guess they are completely blind to the fact and seem hell bent on driving CM to the ground which is sad.
I agree with a lot of the comments above & so won’t repeat/rehash. I’m hanging by a thread here but not ready to give up yet and holding out hope that the intelligent, amazing, dramatic, thrilling & awesome show & CM family as it was that I fell in love with from the very first episode to season 5 will be back one of these weeks soon.
The show in the past 5 seasons (with some episode exceptions) has prided itself on the high quality & attention to detail, so here’s hoping that someone out there is taking a long hard look at what’s happening and taking some note of what the fans/viewers are saying/have been saying through season 6 and turn this around.
Based on this episode, the most recent one, and the discussion about Seaver, I am, honestly, more worried about CM than I have ever been.
Whether it's due to the pilot pulling all the good writers and Bernero away, or that the staff has just gotten tired of our characters, the team feel is gone. This ep showed that very well with no concern about Reid.
I've heard the character of Seaver defended as some kind of Clarice Starling wannabe, but now, after reading a comment on another board, I'm thinking that Spencer was the original Clarice Starling of Criminal Minds. He was mentored by an older FBI agent and brought into the FBI because of him. Young and innocent and pretty (!) and so vulnerable that evil creeps didn't take him seriously.
So, if Seaver is another Starling-clone, does that mean her character has been brought in not to replace JJ, but to replace Reid? As the damsel in distress? Have they decided Reid's too old to play the ingenue now?
No, I won't watch the stupid spin-off, but I guess I hadn't given up on our CM writers "seeing the light" and getting back on track until I thought about this. If Reid goes, so do I.
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